Obtaining a license 4

[haggis]

The thread "Tragic Indifferece" started to get a little off track concerning the mandatory licensing of engineers.

I'll start a new thread with this question which I've asked of licensed engineers who are not sure of the answer.

If mandatory lincensing became a reality, who could get licensed. How many State boards or Provincial associations would grant a license to an experienced designer (non degreed)provided certain criteria were met and with the recomendation of an already licensed engineer and what would the criteria likely to be.

Of the proponents of mandatory licensing, how many would suddenly be opposed to granting licenses to this sector of the "engineering" workforce.

 

[haggis]

In response to CanEngJohn's post:

I don't know which sector of the Auto industry he works in, but I do know that in the assembly plants, the PE's for the most part are in managerial or administrative positions and do not engineer anything.

New graduates who are hired as engineers are "put in charge of a project" to help fulfill the requirements of attaining PE status. Oficially, I am "their designer" but the fact is that I mentor them. They learn from me.

Fortunately, most of them realized their station in life and accepted that they were "in charge" in a figurative context only.

To snip a few lines from CanEngJohn's post:

I would also agree with many of the above opinions that we still have a flawed PE process. I know a couple of PEs that would have made me queasy if they were required to perform PE services on a regular basis just after they got their license.

The flaw, I assume is the fact that a degree and 4 years experience does not a PE make.

He goes on to say:

However I believe the Industry Exemptions should be modified so that the Engineering can only be performed by a PE or under a PEs direction. The problem I have encountered routinely in the automotive industry are designers who create designs without Engineering guidance and botch the Mechanical Engineering aspects of their designs

I find this contradictory to the previous quote and frankly, quite insulting to experienced designers with 20,30 or even 40 years experience. Evidently, CanEngJohn thought he was there after 8 years.

Anyway, my original question was about the attainment of PE status for non degreed, experienced designers.

In my opinion, an extensive and lengthy interview with the licensing board along with the recomendation of an already licensed PE (maybe even one whom I mentored) would more than suffice.

As I said in a previous post, when the young graduate enters industry, check the arrogance at the door and enroll in reality 101.

 

[haggis]

Not to be dumping on CanEngJohn but:

CanEngJohn's opinion as mentioned in my previous post,

However I believe the Industry Exemptions should be modified so that the Engineering can only be performed by a PE or under a PEs direction

After browsing another form, I find this quote from CanEngJohn:

A degree means you have the education. It does not determine competancy or qualifications. If I have to design or implement something then I listen to the person making the most sense. Not the piece of paper on the wall.

I wonder if the person making most sense could be by any stretch of the imagination be a senior designer.

Just a thought.

 

[JoeTank]

haggis,

With regards to your original question, I suspect that very few state PE Boards would permit non-degreed engineers to become licensed by a grandfather provision. Similarly, i doubt that they would permit the non-degreed engineer to even sit for the exam. Those types of provisions typically existed decades ago when a state initially wrote its PE licensing statutes and regulations. Those provision have typically been removed by now. My answer is based on PE Board newsletters that I regularly receive from the states in which I am licensed. There may still be a state or two that would allow the non-degreed engineer to become licensed, but you would have to research that one.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[haggis]

A star to SteveBraune for his candid reply.

I doubted myself whether the grandfather provision existed in many areas these days. The thread made for good discussion though.

I also appreciated the use of the term "non degreed engineer" which according to many posts, no such thing exists.

Thanks also to all who supported my argument.

On to another post I think.

 

[CanEngJohn]

In reply to haggis

"I find this contradictory to the previous quote and frankly, quite insulting to experienced designers with 20,30 or even 40 years experience. Evidently, CanEngJohn thought he was there after 8 years."

In Ontario our licensing board has a fairly simple path that allows designers with significant experience to become PEs. I had a mental lapse in failing to acknowledge that this is still not universal. I feel it should be. I apologize for the offense.

And yes it took me 8 years to learn when to ask the right senior designer, engineer or millwright the right questions and not assume I had the answer already. Part of being a good PE is knowing when you need to get more information and the sources you should use.

In response to IRstuff

"Not having guidance is a managerial problem, not an engineering licensing problem. I would bet that each of the engineers that you complain about were and are currently supervised by a senior engineer who simply doesn't have time to properly supervise or mentor."

In the cases where I have had the issues there has been a lack of supervision by any indivdual with experience or training beyond a design board. The problem is that the industry exemption allowed the situation to develop where these people could design these products without suitable supervision.

My approach would be to encourage senior designers who have demonstrated solid engineering skills to fill in the missing "blanks" and get their PE. I would also encourage many Engineering licensing boards to make it a simple process for these people.

And finally go ahead and dump. I am not going to learn unless someone tells me I am wrong.
And according to my wife I am wrong all the time so ...

 

[IRstuff]

My point is that even a PE in the supervisory position is not going to have enough time to properly supervise 80 engineers.

In a large company structure, it's impossible for any PE to be sufficiently knowledgeable and expert enough to supervise and mentor 80 different engineers wokring different programs with different tools and different requirements. Engineering of a UAV is radically different than engineering a sensor system.

Additionally, I would argue that a PE who spends his time supervising 80 engineers is going to go stale PDQ and what's the point of getting a PE to only do supervisory work in the first place?

Getting a PE isn't going help in my particular case, because there is no PE discipline to test for and few if any PE's have ever heard of FLIR92, much less used it. And that will not change either.

There have been lots of discussions in this forum about the benefits of PE licensure, but all have failed to recognize that being a PE does not guarantee a good manager, in fact, often, it's the exact opposite. That's a managerial problem that has been on-going for centuries, going back to the start of all of this, which was the guild/apprentice system. Many apprentices were abused and used as slave labor and never got the training they were supposed to get because the master didn't or couldn't part with his own expertise. That's a human nature problem that exists and will continue to exist for some time.

PE supervision is no guarantee of success, because of the basic fact that if you're being trained to be an engineer, you're not being trained to be a manager.


TTFN

 

[haggis]

In response to CanEngJohn's last post.

Gracious answer sir! I do apologize for the dump.

If there are avenues still open for people like myself becoming PE's, and if you've read some of my posts, you'll agree that it is well named as the "grandfather" provision.

Haggis.