Occupancy

[sdv2]

I have an existing building that was modified into a restaurant (Virginia). By Fire Code requirements (Means of Egress, etc.) the calculated Fire Code occupancy is 258. However, the restaurant only has three toilets, so the building inspector only granted a CO for 120 (40 x 3). He used 40 because we used live entertainment. Needless to say, the fire inspector comes in when we have about 150 and wrote a citation for violating the Fire Code. He agrees that the 120 doesn’t reflect the fire safety occupancy level, but he can only go by the number given to him by the building inspector. The building inspector agrees the 258 fire code level and that the limited is based on toilets, but they only issue one level. So…I have to go to court to answer a fire code occupancy violation that wasn’t a fire code violation. I take fire code issues very seriously, but it seems they are making a mockery of the issue when enforcing a toilet use limit. I have no problem being fined for not having enough toilets! Any similar experienecs?

 

[cdafd]

yes have heard many horror stories

That is why they should enforce what is in the books, and let the owner decide if they want to comply or not open, expand, etc.

so why were more toilets not added????????????????

can you go before the city fathers and mothers and see if they will grant you something to bypass toilet requirement for higher occupant load???

maybe porta potties on higher capacity events?????

 

[sfallows]

go higher in the town.

see who has the final say... that is the person you need to talk to where they stand on the issue

 

[stookeyfpe]

The jurisdiction should have a Board of Appeals - if it doesn't, you need to speak to the powers at be. What is being done is mixing code requirements. The fact that you lack an insufficent number of toilets should have been addressed when the building changed its occupancy into a restaurant. The number of toilets has no relevance to the occupant load and the fire inspector should know this. I suspect you are in "good-ol boy" country.

Like CDA, I also have seen this in my career and it is sad and lowers the credability of code professionals.

Please keep us informed as to the final decisions.

 

[DonPhillips]

In the old days, people would complain about the number of plumbing fixtures the building code required. It cost too much, too much space, etc, and the applicant claims they would "never" have that many people in the building.

So the code was changed to allow the building official to accept a lower occupancy number based a reduced plumbing fixture count. Now the complaint is you want you cake now that you ate it?

The fire official was simply enforcing the maxiumum occupancy number on the Certificate of Occupancy. It was not mixing codes.

Getting a variance for the plumbing fixtures should not be a problem since this is not a safety issue, although some will argue there is a reason for the numbers in the plumbing code.


Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[sdv2]

Don, you have obviously never dealt with LIFE safety fire codes. These codes are very critical for evacuating people from a burning building, and SAVING LIVES. Until someone keels over and dies waiting in line to pee, the two issues are completely unrelated from a safety issue. I’m not pleading innocence of the occupancy (toilet) violation – but citing fire codes is wrong! The fire inspectors and building inspectors need to get their act together. The reason they enforce one occupancy level is because the building inspectors don’t want to have go out in the evening to enforce their non-fire (safety) related code violations…so they use the fire department. Also, this action isn’t just out in small town USA…this is all of Virginia.

 

[cdafd]

sdv2


The occupant load shoulkd be based on square footage and use of the space, and exiting should meet the requirements for the occupant load.

When an occupant load is set below what the actual should be, you get problems like this.

The enitre building/ space should have be designed for the acutal occupant load, to include the number of required toilets.

Than there would be no problem till you went over the assigned occupant load.

the building department sets the occupant load and the fire dept enforces it.

soumds like you either need to complain to the building dept, or install toilets.

you do not say why the correct amount of toilets were installed???????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[DonPhillips]

The building code is a mimimum life safety code plus some additional, minimum requirements like ventilation, heating, and sanitation for the general public welfare. Once a building is designed, plans approved, a permit issued, the work inspected, and a certificate of occupancy is issued, the building official has no legal power to enforce anything, including how many people are in a building.

When I was on the other side of the counter, my clients would sometimes exceed the minimum code requirements and we seldom ran into issues like this, and some only wanted the minimum code requirement.

In this case, we have less than the minimum requirement, which can cause one problems.

Not all fire marshals issue citations without a verbal warning. Some may have to catch you a couple of times before issuing the citation. And some are cite first, ask questions later.

And in some jurisdictions with recent history of catastrophy (Providence, RI), it is hard to blame them being aggressive with enforcement.


Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com