Offshoring is Major Cause of Technical Unemployment -IEEE 29

[GregLocock]

"Just upping sticks and following the job is not an option for most"

makeup, you are very fortunate. My father was an engineer, and we moved 5 times before I left home (and they moved twice more afterwards before he retired). I have moved 7 times so far, each time I changed jobs.

So, while it is jolly nice to live in one place all your life, I do not think that the rest of the world has that luxury.






Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Ron07663]

GregLocock:
This article is about China getting more of the Australian automotive work-

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_ion_collapse_puts/index.htm

So where will engineering be in 5 years-- looks like it will be mostly in China. Who will tell all the engineering students that they are studying to be migrant workers?

Ron

 

[GregLocock]

I think you are right, dinosaur manufacturing industries, such as shipbuilding, automotive, and personal computers, will tend to move to those countries that have the right sort of infrastructure (modern) and the right sort of wages (low) and the right sort of workforce (motivated).

This is the way it always has been. The only way that countries with higher than average wages can survive is by doing something better than the rest of the world. Since, demonstrably, product engineering can largely be done anywhere in the world, there is no necessity to have your product engineering co-located with your manufacturing plants. So, so long as product design engineers can out-engineer the competition, cost effectively, they will have a job.

Obviously some engineers are required on-site, and quite why China is not chock-a-block with unemployed American engineers improving their factories and products is beyond me. The market is there.

Incidentally I suspect there is a lot more to the Ion collapse than that story says, I have never, ever, considered buying shares in them, their acquisition strategy seemed insane, and their public statements seemed to be long on spin.(That's the polite version).





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[SacreBleu]

QCE, (speaking in my field, structural design of buildings)the reasons that American engineers do the engineering design of major projects in foreign countries is frequently because the Architect is American, or the American Engineers have the best basic "know-how" to get the job done. And, it is not just American Engineers. You can rely on French, German, British, etc. also. Experience counts.
Your comment about the American PE being a "joke" is very odd.

 

[DrillerNic]

EddyC- suely it's quite easy to put a quality assurance section into an offshoring contract? Something like "all work will be done done PE's or equivalent"?

A couple of years ago was in drilling in the Ukraine (one of the 8 times I've moved in the last 6 years) and the quality of geoscientists there was outstanding- every single mudlogger had a PhD! Someone will soon take a deep breath and bring an Eastern European Oil Service Company onto an installation in the North Sea and then the likes of Halliburotn, Schlumberger etc will have to reduce their prices or leave....Cheaper doesn't always mean worse! Now I notice that Schlumberger have opened up a seismic and petrophysiscs centre of excellence in Moscow- and petrophysiscs & log analysis is one of those things that can be done anywhere where there's an internet link...so start learning Russian if you're in that part of the upstream O&G business!

But on a broader note, while the US was exporting jobs and so on to the rest of the world (most of the early North Sea boom was engineered in the States for example) no-one was compalining in the US- UK based engineeers educated themselves, changed from industrial engineers to offshore engineers and undercut the guys from Houston...and then started doing stuff in the US... it's what happens, it's called progress in a global world. Having benefitted from open trade and exporting goods and services to teh rest of the world for over 100 years, to then deny these benefits to other countries is selfish- even though the self interest is understandable!

 

[makeup]

I love this site you get some great points of view, long may it continue.

GreLocock

In the day of your parents, the man was probably the main bread winner and the wife stayed at home. Today both adults tend to work and a change in location affects 2 people not one and if you both have an interest in career development then the problems start. No engineering position offers the benefits or stability that would allow my wife to even consider giving up her career to start somewhere else. These moves for me just dont add up and following the job is not an option and the stakes need to be raised significantly if this is to change. Totally opposite to current trends. My answer has been to re-invent myself, change career, not what I want but its not that bad.

The problem for me is that I no longer have a viable outlet for the skills that I have spent 25 years getting, some are relevant but the BENG degree, why did I do that?. Why didn't I do an MBA? and this will affect a lot of people. The benefits working in or for engineerng do not make moving a viable option. It will take to long to redeem the capital outlay involved with relocation and the risks involved are totally in my lap. All in all not worth it and not worth the worry just a bit disappointing because I am an engineer at heart.

 

[EddyC]

What proof do any of us in the USA have that the offshored engineering work is being done by real engineers? Since the folks in other countries are not subject to US regulations, who's to say who ends up doing the engineering? This is precisely the reason that PE licensing exists in the USA. Does India or China or wherever have a similar credential? Is it equivalent to what we have in the USA? After all, you can't do certification testing on buildings & infrastructure, like you do on an airplane in order to validate your design. The engineering quality control is on the input side in regards to building design via proper credentials (the PE). Does anyone honestly think that business folks have any idea what real engineering (or real work) is all about? Offshoring is just the business religion of the day.

 

[ginger092892]

I am just now, considering a Bachelor of Science and perhaps a masters degree in Computer engineering. I have a degree in Mechanical engineering, but since manufacturing is leaving this country, I am not sure I want to spend any more time or money in up dating skills, or searching for a job, in this field. I have looked for a job for two years with no results. I live in Michigan where automotive is the key sector, and currently in a down turn. Also GM instructed it's suppliers to off shore their factories (an article in the Detroit paper), to save them money. In short the future in manufacturing does not look good. Would this second degree in computer engineering help me to obtain employment? I want to move away from manufacturing. I would appreciate any opinions. My second option is nursing (an RN ). I am at a cross road now, trying to make a choice. I understand the love of techincal professions etc. but I also need to make a living. Engineering will always be my first choice. Any opinion you could offer a newby would be appreciated. Since you are all in the engineering profession, I trust your word against anything a counselor at school would tell me.

 

[rhodie]

ginger092892:

The true irony of the situation:

If GM offshores all it's suppliers and puts those people out of jobs, then there are just that many fewer people that afford all those new, over-appreciated cars and trucks.
End result = GM financial woes continue. (Do you really think China is going to purchase GM when they have their choice of 15 or so National brands to select from?...)

I have no good advice for you, other than keep trying.
Maybe look to bio-engineering to blend a field fairly exclusive to the US with your love of engineering.
Good luck, keep after it, and don't get too down in the dumps from what you read on here. The sun still shines!

 

[makeup]

I stepped out and now earn more money, work less hours, have more holiday, get better training, have an excellent work-life balance, can work from home, organise my own diary, get a pension, regular pay rises and excellent bonuses, expenses plus paid. The only thing I miss is the pressure and fun that the Oil and Gas industry gave me, as for the rest there is far better to be had.

My mother made an excellent career out of nursing, didn't start until we had grown up, she was 36. She is just retiring and went from student nurse to cancer specialist earning £40K+. She is planning to write a book and training material in her retirement. What do you have to do to earn £40K in IT these days. She has had continuity and support throughout. Try one for a few years and if you dont like it change to the other.

 

[GregLocock]

I think Computer Engineering would be a very risky step. Remember, offshoring started in the IT field.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[SacreBleu]

Ginger:
Consider structural engrg (building and/or residential). There some of the work is being offshored, but so far, it has not been much of a threat to job security.

 

[QCE]

Please enlighten me on why people here all of a sudden think the US PE system is so great.

I'm sure we will hear from many that disagree with your position.

 

[BitTwiddler]

ginger092892 asked:

Would [a] degree in computer engineering help me to obtain employment?

My answer to her question is no.

Try these links for more information on this subject:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/business/7496501.htm

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/nov04/1104eesb1.html

http://www.itworld.com/Career/1827/040726techemployment/

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1880/

http://www.todaysengineer.org/Apr04/outlook.asp

http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2005hearings/written_testimonies/05_01_04wrts/hira_ronil_wrts.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/0,10801,98524,00.html

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-12-24-ee-salaries_x.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2005-02-10-offshore-usat_x.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_12/b3925601.htm

 

[arunmrao]

Outsourcing jobs is an unpleasant task ,but is essential for the business. This is a fact and also is the order of the day. It started with OSHA regulations(For foundry industry) and then IT now the tentacles have spread all over. US industry buys castings at ridiculously low prices from India and China. The benefits of this purchase naturally goes to US industry. Also I am told that people are no longer interested in such industries. In Uk about 10 years ago young boys were reluctant to work in foundries as their girl friends refused to date. This was a social problem. No one complained when such assignments started coming to other countries. Castings are needed in all places but thhere is a reluctance to manufacture. Such dichotomies may exist in other fields too. Please do not think it is lucrative to sell to US, domestic market is more attractive,thanks to China which buys scrap from US at 300$/ton and sells castings at 950$/ton. Amazing!!.

Engineering is a specialised faculty and cannot be displaced so easily,like a banking(account details etc) or customer care activity.

US engineers only need to refocus their synergies and strengths(available in plenty),

 

[davefitz]

ginger092892:

One field that is opening up to mechanical engineers ( providing you are 25-35 yrs old) is in the electric power generation field. That industry has become aware that they have zero professionals in that age group, and realize that in 10 years all current profesionals will retire en masse on the same date. To offset that "wave", most electric utilities are offering early reirement for anyone over 50 yrs old and looking to hire the 25-25 age group to fill in the gap.

 

[DrillerNic]

Ginger092892: the asme thing that Davefitz is alluding to is happening in the upstream O&G industry: the average age of engineers is climbing ("young" these days is below 38) and the Oil Cos and Oil Service Cos are biggining to panic...in a few years (maybe even starting now), it will be a sellers market for engineering and geoscience professionals!

 

[ScottyUK]

davefitz,

It's the same story for the electrical engineers in the heavy electrical industries - generation, transmission, petrochem, etc. How the wheel has turned: the engineers of my generation suffered badly when the UK electricity industry was privatised. At that time there were more engineers than jobs, so pay was indifferent and openings were rare. Now we're an increasingly valuable commodity. Bring it on!!



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[davefitz]

I am not so sure that the petrochem will be a sellers market re: engineering. Based on the curent rapid increase in China developement of oilfields in south america as well as China seas, the china petrochem industry will soon be able to market its engineering abilities as turnkey EPC contractors to wesern developers. That will basically outsource the petrochem EPC to China, and skip the "renaissance" of western engineeering.