Old Codes 3

[kxa]

Anyway I can get an old building code,say from 60 years ago?
I need to find out what the requirements were for house crawl spaces. They probably didn't have any!
I'm reviewing a report which the engineer who wrote it is using current code to deny the owner's insurance claim for damage.
I don't think it's right because the house was built to the standards in effect at the time.

 

[Once20036]

It sounds like two questions in 1... What was the building code and where can you get a copy.
I'd start by contacting the local city/county/state (as appropriate) and try to get an old timer on the line who may know. It's not likely that someone will have been around for the past 60 years, but if you can get someone who knows there was no code 30 years ago, than that's also the case 60 years ago.

Once you figure out what the code was, I think you`ll be able to find a copy with a little creativity - Check with the building department, local libraries, local university libraries, etc.

Where is the project located?
What is the damage?

What's right and what's legal are two very different standards...

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

can you share what the damage is and the egr code review stated?..

You should get nowhere without some info... This is an internationally participated website, and even inside the USA the codes vary by state and year (only just 15 years ago, there were 3 separate building codes operating in the USA)... There are also fire codes and plumbing codes.... etc.. which we assume building code because of the forum, but still.

there is an "existing building code" out there that might be well to look into to see if it acknowledges your conditions exist.

 

[dhengr]

Kxa:
I agree with Once20036 and had started this earlier, so I’m saying some of the same things in slightly different words. I would go to your local library, or better yet local university library, maybe a local bldg. dept. which should have some history of the bldg. codes in the area. 50 or 60 yrs. ago, most areas other than large cities really didn’t have much in the way of bldg. codes or serious enforcement. But then, we didn’t have as many inexperienced people running around pretending to be builders and engineers either. We still had some DIY’ers. and novice builders doing some silly things.

Bldgs. have been being built on crawl spaces for a long time, there are a bunch of potential problems with crawl spaces, and we still haven’t figured them all out. Irrespective of the exact current code verbiage for crawl spaces vs. whatever an older code might not have said, common building sense and good engineering judgement can solve many (probably most/all) of the problems You haven’t done a very good job of defining the actual problem in your OP, so we don’t know how to comment further.

That’s kinda a crazy argument on the other engineer’s part, but not completely uncommon when nothing else sticks to the wall. If every building had to meet today’s building codes to be insurable, the insurance cos. wouldn’t be collecting many premiums. They insured the bldg. and should have inspected it and refused to insure it if some serious code violations or deviations made it uninsurable. However, most bldg. insurance policies do not cover poor construction, design or engineering. We are doing all kinds of things these days which weren’t std. 40, 50, 60 yrs. ago, and some of what we are doing/advocating/codifying today has yet to be proven to be superior to what was done in the past. What is the real problem, what caused the problem? Should or would a homeowner be expected to know about this problem until it causes damage which makes it absolutely obvious? Look at other bldgs. of that vintage, what was std. practice of the era, why/how is this particular situation different than other bldgs. that don’t have the same problem. I’m so damn sick and tiered of everything being a slave to some exact code verbiage, which many people can’t explain, nor do they understand the real intent of that code section; and then, good building sense and practice and good engineering experience and judgement are mostly ignored.

 

[wannabeSE]

By the way, the ICC sells pdfs of many old US building codes:

http://shop.iccsafe.org/codes/legacy-codes.html

 

[kxa]

Good points and thank you. I will check with the local building department.

The house is located near water along with many other houses in the northeast area but for some reason, a few of the floor joists broke under load which was later determined that a couple of them were damaged by dry rot. this is a small summer house about 20'x30' and the bottom joists are about 3' above sandy ground (no slab). There are 4 vents each with the size of one CMU. Surprisingly, there is an unusual amount of fungal infestation. It appears that the joists with internal decay broke first and then then some of the adjacent ones as the load got transferred to them by the subfloor.

I have seen many crawl space without any vents but nothing like this. The unsuspecting homeowner not having any technical background about house construction should not be responsible for this but yet, the insurance co. is denying it for lack of adequate ventilation and they cite the 2010 code for that!

 

[BAretired]

I didn't see any reference to the location. If it was in New York State, the 1955 building code is available on the 'net.

http://nysboc.com/content/Generic/View/25:field=documents;/content/Documents/File/45.pdf

BA

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

there is some things being said here that doesn't sit right.

An engineer can visit a site and discuss whether or not it meets code and how not... that does not mean they are arguing against insurance claim. They are there to report facts and lack of ventilation and/or a vapor barrier is very relevant. The engineer would need to discuss it in terms of current codes because code is a standard for ventilation of crawl spaces. it is the engineer's job to comment on the functionality relevant to current knowledge, otherwise they are just talking anecdotal BS. If you found rotting wood, wouldn't you make objective opinions about the adequacy of ventilation and moisture barriers.

Many insurance policies have language that protect them from long-term damage from lack of maintenance. You don't get rotting joists overnight. Are you Sure that the denial is based on the lack of meeting Code? or is the problem better described as a current code defect that is a major contributor to a problem that has occurred over a long time and could have been remedied cheaper if addressed earlier by a pro-active Owner? i'm being devil's advocate here, but i've seen insurance deny long-term damage over and over again.

my house has a foundation that is built on field stone like most houses in my town. If a tornado were to rip it out and my claim be denied for not being built to current code, i would fight like crazy. But, almost everybody has had to replace their rotted sill plates in this town and there are Zero insurance companies helping out with that.

 

[kxa]

BA

Thanks. That is exactly what I needed. Interestingly, in 1956 ventilation requirement was 1 sq ft/500 sq ft od crawl space and in 1964 was changed to just "adequate area" so that structural damage won't occur due to condensation (same for the 1964 code)!! Now it is 1 sq ft of vent area per 150 sq ft of crawl space area.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

on another point.... i understand a lot of the increases in ventilation requirements for crawl spaces have been driven by Radon safety and not humidity/mold ventilation issues. I don't know when it happened but i would look in the mid-90's to start. there is probably code commentary to find about that somewhere. insurance companies also pay squeeky wheels so it doesn't hurt to chase.