Opininons of engineering status? 11

[sbozy25]

Ok, this has been eating at me for some time now, and has just come to a boil this morning. Unfortunately, ventint to my boss does me no good, so I will vent to all of you and see what you think.

I work in a small engineering/quality office. My boss is a degreed engineer with 30+ years of engineering and quality experience, as such he is a dual duty manager over engineering and quality. I am the only other degreed engineer we have. In the engineering office there is one other guy who has never taken a college course a day in his life, but has been in the department for 11 years now. Then in quality there are 2 people with manufacturing experience but no college experience.

Here is my beef, the guy I work with continually refers him self as an engineer to customers and others we work with. He had his business cards made up to say product engineer III, I believe he did this because mine say product engineer II and he wanted to apear to rank above me. Granted he has 11 years of experience, but I have a very strong 4 year accredited degree, as well as 2 years automotive experience, 1 year pressure vessel design, and now 1.5 years here. I have seen the sallary sheets for our department and I make 20k+ more than him and have better bennifits and vacation. Also, when our boss is out, I am his proxy to step in as department manager.

This morning we had a big confrontation because our boss is gone for a week and he put a sign on his door that manufacturing was to see me if they had any issues. Well this "engineer" blew up at me and got all mad about how he is left out of everything. I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad.

Am I wrong in my view? I mean I view an engineer as someone who has put in the grueling time in university, and has the degree to support it. Quality has the same issue, but only 1 of them refer to them selves as an engineer, the other calls her self a technician. I personally think he should call him self an engineering technician, or perhaps engineering estimator (since that is all he does)

Am I off base?

 

[ash9144]

As an engineer who has experienced the same type people, I'd say no your view is not at all incorrect. However your approach is. I worked with a guy who had a biology degree and magically annointed himself engineer. I spent a couple years going toe to toe with him and usually ended up the bad guy and told to play nice with others. Finally I became enlightened to the fact I was not going to win head to head and just let him run wild with his engineering expertise. His mistakes caught up with him and he was stripped of all authority and eventually pushed out the door. Just work hard gain respect and let them fail miserably.
"It takes two to fight"

 

[mechengdude]

I would agree that unless you have a four year degree then you are not an engineer.

That being said, what does it matter if he or anyone else at your place of buisness calls themself an engineer? The one place I would see a problem is if you are in the Civil disipline or some other area where a PE is required for stamping drawings or similar or if the person is deliberatly mis-representing himself to a customer as an Engineer where being a degreed engineer is a requirement.

It sounds more like a battle of ego's to me. Let him put Cheif Engineer and Supreme Commander on his card; who cares. You make $20K more than him and get left in charge when the boss is gone. Take the high road and forget about what his title is.

 

[TenPenny]

There are two things that are important, the rest you can forget about:
-your boss puts you in charge when he's not there. That speaks to what he thinks of your abilities
-you make more than the self appointed engineer.

Don't waste your time confronting him or arguing with him. When he complains, just smile and let him vent. Don't get into any kind of argument.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad.

Really? Surely not. Why would that make him mad?

I view an engineer as someone who has put in the grueling time in university, and has the degree to support it.

Grueling? It's easier and more fun than working, plus you get a bit of paper at the end that opens doors. I don't recall any of my lectures starting before 9 and coursework was a doddle compared with writing engineering reports.

- Steve

 

[vc66]

I have no idea what the discrepancy in salary or benefits has to do with anything. That's petty.

Your boss put you in charge for a reason.

Being a younger engineer myself, I've gladly had my ass handed to me by the other engineers on this board regarding the fact that I still don't know squat (and I thank them). So now I must do the same for you (in a constructive way).

I understand you're upset, but you have to try and understand it from his point of view. This young guy comes in, and now all of a sudden he's number two. It's almost as if he's insecure about his place in the company, so he feels he has to compete.

As mechengdude said, take the high road. Stop complaining, do your job to the best of your ability, and you will succeed.

Good luck.

V

 

[TheTick]

I hear a lot of "you can't learn this in college". This is often from people who have trouble writing in complete paragraphs.

 

[sbozy25]

I understand what you are all getting at. But, this really bugs me. The guy makes mistake after mistake, I and my boss constantly have to sweep up after him. When he refers to him self as an engineer to customers then doesn't back up his mouth with good work it makes us look bad. I really think he must have naked pictures of my boss or something (not really, but you get my point) because he has never been considered for firing even though his work is known as sub-par. Yes, I suppose I should go the high road... I just hate it when people try to claim something they didn't earn....

I'm not going to let it get the best of me, I only have a little while longer till I go for my PE, then I'll be moved to corporate and won't have to deal any more....

Like I said, I just needed to vent.... and while doing so, wanted to see how you all felt about it, since 99% of you are true engineers.

Someting... I don't know what school you went to, but mine was tough as tough gets. I had many 7:45AM -8:00AM start times for classes and often was in class till 3-4 in the afternoon... Busted my self to get out with good grades...

 

[jmw]

Always difficult to correctly interpret any situation from the information given so excuse me if I read it wrong.

Let’s take the question of “engineer”.
What is the legal status of "engineers" in your country?
In some countries pretty well anyone can be called an engineer but in other countries there is a more precise legal definition. I have to assume that there is no legal protection of the term engineer in your country. Thus in companies that are engineering orientated there is a tendency for all sorts of jobs with an engineering type of role, even if they are not filled by qualified engineers, to have job titles will often include “engineer”: Sales engineer, Marketing Engineer, Product Engineer etc.

Qualified engineers, if allowed, could include engineering qualification on the card.
Be sure that how he describes himself to others is not simply self-aggrandisement but is because that is how your boss wants to see him presented to others, especially clients, as it describes the job function.

OK, Engineer II and Engineer III is a poor choice as the hierarchy can be II senior to III or the other way round, better to have Product Engineer and Senior Product Engineer.

OK, your authority derives from your boss, himself an engineer, who has chosen to reward you with a better salary and authority in his absence.
How far does that authority extend? is it formalised? Is it in fact "authority" or is it that you are the first point of reference while he is away? Are you expected to supervise your colleague and do you attempt to do so? Are you expected to consult with him at any time and do you do so?

If you have no direct authority over your co-worker but simply to represent your boss in certain areas of activity then it may be that your co-worker has reason to think you are overstepping the mark.

"I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad."

It would me also, more so if said with a patronising politeness rather than in heated discussion. With some people you might expect a more violent reaction requiring medical intervention.

Are there other circumstances where you have acted in such a way as to make him only too well aware that you are more qualified than he is (or better paid?)? Have you shown that you don't consider his experience in any ways compares to your own and your qualifications?

The fact that he isn't formally qualified doesn't mean he is an idiot or incompetent, indeed, in almost any area of expertise there are many who are formally qualified who are less able than those lacking formal qualifications.

In small offices informality is preferred and the emphasis may be on team work and getting on with each other.

If you are sure you have always treated him fairly and with appropriate respect then you should be comfortable insisting that he accepts the status quo now existing.
Be sure you are right before you attempt to escalate this. I’d suggest trying for a reconciliation first, go buy the man a drink and talk it through and if you get nowhere, then agree with him to “clarify” the situation with the boss.
Be prepared that what the may not be amused by a squabble over who has seniority or qualifications, especially if you have not properly understood the situation nor how you are expected to interact with your co-workers.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[csd72]

sbozy25,

You need to learn to accept the things that you cannot change - life is full of them.

 

[TheTick]

This will be a fact of life through all of your career. These creatures are not going away. They almost always inflict suffering.

The only answer is to hone your people skills. Do this while you are young, it will save you much pain.

 

[jmw]

There you go, your second post clarifies his abilities or lack there of but you are right to wonder if he has some tenure that means you may just have to grin and bear it.... and why not? you're going corporate soon and he is staying where he is.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[calguy07]

i've experienced this before myself. can someone tell me why we're so obsessed with the title of "engineer"?? its not like half the population even understands what we do anyway.

 

[Lion06]

I was talking to a surgeon the other day who actually thought I made up "structural engineer". She actually said, "What is that? You just made that up, didn't you?"

 

[csd72]

StructuralEIT,

You should have explained to her that in a building, the Architect designs the skin, the Structural engineer designs the skeleton, and a mechanical engineer designs the organs. And ask her where she thought her pretty little hospital came from - a concrete stork?

sbozy25,

A bit of advice with dealing with people. Try and treat everyone as an equal. Those above you will take it as confidence, those below you will take it as respect.

 

[jistre]

...and the Civil engineer designs the colon!

I keed, I keed...

 

[calguy07]

...and the electrical engineer designs the nervous system.

 

[Gymmeh]

DO YOUR JOB! Be humble, cover your butt.

You may be Right, but you work in a small company. If your company is as small am mine politics and friends and really make things interesting. If people/workers like him more and word gets around that you think your high on a pedestal, they can make life very hard for you.

I work for a small company 4 staff and 15 workers, I was in a similar situation of dealing with older people. The only difference is the older engineer with 15 yrs experience that I was supposed to work with actually has an BSME –& supposedly a high GPA. I have bit my tong so many times its ridiculous because of his FUBAR’s.

The odd thing is my boss for some reason will not fire him. Even thought he probably losses about 1000USD every week from mistakes. When I tried to point this out, I was told to do my job, and I was to young to say anything. Finally I got a good opportunity when he sent one system out the door that was not to industry standards, and another was being built. After working at home and work for 3 days to collect all the information, and do all the calculations, making sure I was ABSOLUTLY correct, and calling a couple people considered the issues unsafe to “get my back,” I walked into my bosses office and give him all the information about how dangerous his “engineering” was, and could potentially kill someone. Oddly my boss asked me why I didn’t say anything earlier, I told him “well I tried but I was shot down the last time.”

Shortly after my boss demoted him to “sales rep” and made an “engineering” approval form which has to be signed by the “engineer”. My boss stressed he was the “sales rep” and I am the “Engineer”, and he was not allowed the think of engineering anything.

I actually felt bad because after the meeting the guy sat at his desk and sobbed for the next two days, without saying anything.

 

[Gymmeh]

I guess the point is, like Csd, some things dont change...

I have a feeling if the major safety issue -IE. potential law suit- did not happen, the other guy would still be engineering and still FUBAR'ing everything.

and I would still be the KID engineer.

 

[csd72]

jistre,

Of course it was designed by a civil engineer, who else would put a waste treatment works right next to the fun park.