Opininons of engineering status? 11

[sbozy25]

Ok, this has been eating at me for some time now, and has just come to a boil this morning. Unfortunately, ventint to my boss does me no good, so I will vent to all of you and see what you think.

I work in a small engineering/quality office. My boss is a degreed engineer with 30+ years of engineering and quality experience, as such he is a dual duty manager over engineering and quality. I am the only other degreed engineer we have. In the engineering office there is one other guy who has never taken a college course a day in his life, but has been in the department for 11 years now. Then in quality there are 2 people with manufacturing experience but no college experience.

Here is my beef, the guy I work with continually refers him self as an engineer to customers and others we work with. He had his business cards made up to say product engineer III, I believe he did this because mine say product engineer II and he wanted to apear to rank above me. Granted he has 11 years of experience, but I have a very strong 4 year accredited degree, as well as 2 years automotive experience, 1 year pressure vessel design, and now 1.5 years here. I have seen the sallary sheets for our department and I make 20k+ more than him and have better bennifits and vacation. Also, when our boss is out, I am his proxy to step in as department manager.

This morning we had a big confrontation because our boss is gone for a week and he put a sign on his door that manufacturing was to see me if they had any issues. Well this "engineer" blew up at me and got all mad about how he is left out of everything. I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad.

Am I wrong in my view? I mean I view an engineer as someone who has put in the grueling time in university, and has the degree to support it. Quality has the same issue, but only 1 of them refer to them selves as an engineer, the other calls her self a technician. I personally think he should call him self an engineering technician, or perhaps engineering estimator (since that is all he does)

Am I off base?

 

[sbozy25]

HAHAHAHHAHAHA

Kenat, I had forgotten all about that thread.... Well, I suppose I proved my point didn't I? This thread was started out of blind rage.... I just couldn't take it anymore, and was tired of this guy making our entire company look bad.... Oh well, as many of you have said... That is how life goes...

 

[trainguy]

When I interview new engineers, I would say that their people skills are 45% of the evaluation, and their tech skills are 55%.

I need to make sure I (and my staff) can work with these people, so with all due respect, I believe I would NOT have hired you, Sbozy25.

Office atmosphere is Everything, as far as I am concerned.

Don't sweat the small stuff...

tg

 

[KENAT]

No problems sbozy, my telling my boss off last week wasn't exactly a well considered career move, especially considering my post about a year ago about frustration.

IRstuff, wasn't a serious dig, until I moved hear I had no idea it took you slackers this side of the pond 4 years;-). (I have a theory it's a scam by the education system to get more money seeing as most of you have to pay a lot where as in the UK it's heavily subsidized even today so they want to get you out ASAP. Heck a few years ago I'd heard a suggestion in the UK that by not having a summer break they were going to create a 2 year bachelors in business/general studies/liberal arts type subject to speed things up/save money.)

Greg/Sompting that's pretty much it for me too. Doing 4 A levels, including double math (pure & applied of course, none of that statistics nonsense;-)) while playing Rugby & Cricket (not literally at the same time) was a killer for me.

I find it amusing that in the UK a 4 year degree (straight from 'high school') would be a masters, while in the US it's a bachelors.

The thing that makes it difficult is that a lot of application forms this side of the pond ask if you have a 4 year degree, rather than if you have a bachelors. I always have to consider my response, I normally just say yes but I suppose I could get called on it one day.

As to the 'breadth of knowledge' argument for having a bunch of other classes in addition to Engineering, I'm not sure it actually adds up. I understand it's supposed to make you more well rounded but I've come across a lot more Engineers with very specific specialization &/or lack of soft skills in the US than in the UK.

Sorry, almost all of this is off topic.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[csd72]

In Australia engineering is a 4 year degree (bachelors) with part of the last year spent on a thesis.

First years was maths,chemistry,physics and introductory engineering topics such as statics, other years were mostly straight engineering with some maths/stats/management thrown in.

szboy25,

This may sound like a contradiction to my previous posts, but I actually do understand your frustration on this matter. People who have not had the formal education tend to underestimate how much of a part it is in our everyday engineering decisions.

As I have said before, someone without the background education can understand 'what' to do, but you need the education to understand the 'why'. The why is very important when you do something that is out of the ordinary.

That said, as I said before, you need to learn to deal with these people without confrontation.

 

[sbozy25]

Well, thanks to all who responded, I find it interesting to see how everyone views this subject. Now if only there were a way to lock this thread from any more responses. Personally I don't appreciat some of the comments that seem rude to me, even if they weren't directed in that way, it came through that way. I needed to vent, and wanted to see how you all felt about that subject, I know this is something I just need to deal with, and I will. It just built up over time and I had not other good outlet for my frustration.

and training... no offense, but I think even if you meant no disrespect... that comment about hiring was uncalled for. You may feel that way, but you don't know me or what kind of a person I am. But again, that is life... you are entitled to your opinion as am I and so is everyone else. Again, just needed to blow off the steam, and quite a few of your responses made me laugh a good one!

PS.... HE WAS FIRED TODAY!!!! the VP saw him come in late for the 17th day in a row, and marched him right out the door.... Good things to happen if you are patient I suppose!

 

[ctopher]

This is a learning experience. You now know the views of others within different disciplines, companies and countries.
It was a matter of time that he was fired or quit.
Congrat's! Good luck to you.


Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

 

[KENAT]

sbozy, with this type of post in this forum you tend to get any potential flaws in yourself highlighted.

I got the same when I vented a few months ago and asked If I was wrong for wanting an Engineer disciplined for corrupting a bunch of data by doing something he shouldn't have. Consensus of posters here was that I was just out to get the guy/stab him in the back and that as such I was some kind of pond scum.

Not what I was hoping for obviously but if that was the perception of most on here then it probably would have been the perception of most in the office here, so probably worth hearing.

The guy got cut in a bunch of layoffs in October last year, I’m pretty sure doing the type of thing I was venting about was part of the reason he was selected. A bit harsher than what I’d wanted but I guess things catch up with you.

I like to think I’m better than most at accepting criticism/having my flaws pointed out and admitting my mistakes but maybe I have too higher an opinion of myself, cause sometimes it’s still real painful/annoying.

At least your irritation is removed now, just try and remember the above advice for next time, especially mine obviously;-).


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Gymmeh]

Congratulations!!! Hope your next coworker is better!

I think it’s really funny, every time the 3yr Euro program vs. the 4yr US program are compared. Can’t we all just get along???

 

[trainguy]

Sbozy25,

I think you are right - my comment was uncalled for, now that I re-read it.

Believe it or not, I was actually trying to help...

tg

 

[IRstuff]

Dang, I had to slog through 4 yrs of humanities and a bunch of general ed stuff

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Gymmeh]

I love how the Schools always say they have humanities to make engineering students well rounded.

My Anthropology class didn’t do anything but increase my arrogance toward liberal arts degrees. The professor did her “research” on the spiritual practices of native people.
This translated to, tripping on mushrooms, paotie cactus, other drugs, and “spiritual” 5exua1 acts. It was such a joke.

 

[csd72]

No they send you to humanities classes to get more money out of you.

Do the humanities students attend engineering classes to make them more rounded?

Engineering is a complicated profession, you only learn a fraction of it at university, why reduce that fraction by sending people to unrelated classes?

 

[jmw]

Be more useful to go on creative writing classes.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[IRstuff]

Sure, given the contortions we go through to figure out specifications, every engineer should have a minor in English.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[oldfieldguy]

"minor in English"? After reading a few contract documents and specifications lately, I'm strongly considering courses in Tarot, astrology and necromancy...

old field guy

 

[HgTX]

I would be highly in favor of requiring the following non-engineering classes (in addition to the usual calculus, physics, chemistry):

1. Technical writing. Two semesters. If you get a B (typically a 3 on a 4-point scale) or better on the first one, the second can be waived.
2. Public speaking (at least for CivEs, who have to interact with lots of other parties)
3. Microeconomics. (I would have said macroeconomics too, but I didn't understand a thing in my macro class and I seem to be OK.)
4. Some kind of computer programming class. Doesn't really matter what language or application, as long as you learn early on how to (a) use code to get what you want (b) reduce a tedious task to an algorithm. (Related but slightly different concepts.)
5. Statistics. Could even be baby statistics for liberal arts majors, rather than heavy duty statistics for math majors. Just to get the basic idea.
6. For CivEs, geology.
7. A foreign language, unless you had one in high school or earlier. Doesn't really matter which one. Once you've learned to understand that your native language isn't the only way things work, and have had the experience of getting your mind to go in another direction, learning further languages isn't nearly as big a deal.

I would have said it's a good idea to have history because those who forget are doomed to repeat etc., but one or two semesters of some specific history class or other are hardly going to scratch the surface. Likewise literature. At least with a social science you get a general idea in an intro class of how the field of inquiry is pursued. There just ain't no way to do "Intro to History".

And yes, they do make the liberal arts majors take classes to make them more well-rounded. They have to do a couple of simple math courses which would be trivial for you but for a lot of them are excruciating. They often have to do some kind of non-calculus science classes (botany, geology, Physics for Poets). I think the Fine Arts majors don't have to, but usually the liberal arts people do.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[KENAT]

HgTX just to give you some idea of my degree in the UK (late 90s Aero):

1. We had to do lots of reports, some of them fairly formal (including a major project/thesis) and had some training in how which touched on tech pubs but more would probably have been a good idea.
2. We had to give presentations to the class (70-150 people) but I can't recall if that was everyone or just project leader on group projects, again at least a little more may have been good.
3. We did a combined managment, accounting & law course, not sure if this covered it to the depth you are suggesting. It was laughably easy, I think one of my highest grades.
4. We took 2 courses in C one each in 1st & 2nd year. I think they were both double classes too.
5. Basic statistics formed part of our math in I think it was the first year. We'd also had to do some statistics at high school, for the most part that at uni was just revision.
6. N/A
7. If I recall correctly everyone had to have taken at least one foreign language for 2 or more years at equivalent of highschool.

So we more or less hit 6 of your 7.

Another thing, hardly any of our exams/tests etc were multi choice/fill in the bubble type tests. Mostly they were long proofs of equations, plugging in numbers at the end for the more analytical courses and either essay or short answer for the others. In fact I'm not sure we had any multi choice, maybe our US design prof gave us a couple, I can't recall for sure. I understand these are common in the US, though she wasn't an Engineer so maybe it doesn't apply.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[HgTX]

I like the idea of the "combined managment, accounting & law" course.

I don't think the average U.S. high school student gets statistics in high school (beyond how to find mean, median, and mode). Or economics. I'm sure some take those classes as an elective, but I didn't know anyone who did. I don't even know if they were offered at my school; all my friends would have used their electives to take extra physics and chemistry classes anyway. (I blew mine on music and on getting out of high school a year early.)

I'm not even going to start on the sorry state of foreign language education where I grew up.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Lion06]

HgTX-
I took everything on your list except for geology.

 

[abusementpark]

I can't speak for other professions, but I don't see how anyone without a degree could engineer anything structurally. People just like having the word "engineer" in their title. Maybe, I need to chew out the handyman at my apartment complex for calling himself a "maintenance engineer", cause he does.