Outside Employment Policies

[civengineer1234567]

I currently work for a large engineering consulting firm (Company X) that is involved in almost every type of engineering in some way or another. I have an opportunity to work for a side business performing marketing support and engineering services in my field on the side for a much smaller firm (Company Y) that would not be directly competing with Company X. I have spoken with HR and my direct supervisor who have directed me to the employee handbook, which "strictly prohibits" outside employment "involving services that are of the same type as, or are competitive with, those provided by Company X". While Company X does perform the same services as Company Y, it is on a much larger scale and would not be servicing the same clients. I understand that my employment includes acceptance of the policies stated in the employee handbook, but my questions are as follows:
1. The Outside Employment Policy of Company X appears to take ownership of me as an engineer, because I cannot perform work
in my field on the side and it would be unethical for me to stamp anything not in my field of expertise. Is this lawful?
Can a company essentially own your PE license?
2. If I were to submit in writing my exact role with Company Y, outlining the potential conflicts of interests and my plan
to avoid such COI's, is there a way to get around the Outside Employment Policy when submitting my request for approval?
3. Are there any other suggestions, past experiences, legal documents, etc. that would guide or aid in my discussion and
understanding of this topic?

Thanks in advance for your input!

 

[KENAT]

1. On questions of legality better off consulting someone in the legal profession.
2. On questions of company policy better off speaking to someone at the company or maybe the afore mentioned legal pro - how are we to know how your management/HR's implement their policy.
3. Do you work in at 'at will' or similar state where it's easy to get rid of you if you rub management & HR the wrong way?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[Ron]

Agree with Kenat...but offer the following:

If your company does not approve the moonlighting, it is unethical for you to do so.
Yes, they "own" you with respect to employment. This is clear in the various codes of ethics and sometimes through statutory requirements.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Take up a hobby.

Better, take up a hobby that produces stuff you can sell.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[berkshire]

I am not suggesting that you do this, but several years ago The company I was working for, got on hard times, and cut my salary.
I informed them that I could not make it on my present pay, and would have to take a part time job.
The response was, "Do what you have to do."
I took a job with a company not quite doing the same work, but close.
After a short while my company objected to me working for this company. I reminded them of what they had said. After about a week the supervisor came to me and said, " If we put your salary back up to where it was, will you stop working for those people?"
I replied that I would be more than happy to comply. When they raised my salary, I quit working for the other company.
Now I do not know if you have that leverage, or if you will just tick off HR. This may be economic, or it may just be a control thing.
B.E.


You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[glass99]

Berkshire - interesting about it being "a control thing". I think in reality that's the real reason, not all the other stuff they tell you.

I've said this before, but folks who moonlight tend to move up in the company and industry. I have seen it a bunch of times. It correlates with having good business skills and working hard.

 

[IRstuff]

1. The Outside Employment Policy of Company X appears to take ownership of me as an engineer, because I cannot perform work
in my field on the side and it would be unethical for me to stamp anything not in my field of expertise. Is this lawful?
Can a company essentially own your PE license?

Yes, but the Company is not preventing you from stamping things for them, but while you work for them, your contract could limit you from using your stamp elsewhere. I could see some issues with liabilities that you incur while moonlighting that may impact the Company if you get sued, i.e., will there be blowback, or will there be lost time while you respond to a suit that does not involve them.

2. If I were to submit in writing my exact role with Company Y, outlining the potential conflicts of interests and my plan
to avoid such COI's, is there a way to get around the Outside Employment Policy when submitting my request for approval?

That's a question for your company; no one can read their minds

3. Are there any other suggestions, past experiences, legal documents, etc. that would guide or aid in my discussion and
understanding of this topic?

You should consult a relevant attorney; laws vary by state or locality.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

 

[moltenmetal]

Full time employment on a salaried basis does usually come with that appearance of ownership, or more properly exclusivity in a limited market. No such implication with part-time, contract or hourly employment.

Moonlighting in exactly the same field is definitely a no-no, whether the clients are the same or not.

 

[looslib]

Since you have already asked HR/management about outside work and been told what the company policy is, you have no options left but to accept their decision.
1) Yes, they own you and your PE license, especially if they paid for it. It is totally ethical since you work for them now and agred to work under their rules, including the employee handbook.
2) Don't even go there! If you in an at will state, you could be shown the door for just asking.
3) Only a lawyer in your state who specializes in employement law would know of any loopholes, but are you sure you want to go that route? Even if not an at will state, and you have no employee contract per say, you can still be fired with a trumped up reason. Unless you are over 50, age will not be a grounds for an unlawful termination suit.

Mike has the right idea, find a hobby that you can make money from.

I worked for a company for almost 4 years when they issued a second WARN letter and announced bankruptcy. I found 2 offers to do the same work as a consultant quickly, so I gave my notice. Since it left the company with no one to manage the system, I agreed to a reduction of hours rather termination. I then presented the reduced hours here withe filling the full time consulting hours, too. Since that vilated the full-time employement agreement, the new company put me on full-time but hourly, so I get paid for what I do for them and they allowed me to continue part-time here, as long as this compnay worked to establish a consulting agreement with my new company. Once the clearances are in place, I will quit here and go full work week for the new company, but still support my old job as a consultant instead of a part-timer.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[moltenmetal]

Any arrangement is fine as long as it is done transparently with the agreement of both parties. But the principal employer holds the axe and therefore sets the rules.

I worked for the first part of my career in the environmental industry. When I joined my current firm, who does no environmental work and whose principal work is design/build rather than consulting, I disclosed to them that I had several private clients for environmental consulting and would need my new employer's agreement to continue serving them, which I received. When one client approached us for assistance with an environmental permit application for a plant we were building for them, we informed that we didn't do that kind of work. I asked my boss if I could put forward my name to do it for them privately and there was no problem. It's all about disclosure and agreement. It's when people sneak around that the trouble happens.

 

[TheTick]

Nearly every place has the same policy: don't get caught.

 

[glass99]

Moonlighting is a bit like jay walking. Technically its illegal no matter what, and if there is a car coming is definitely a bad idea, but if there are no cars coming everyone does it. HR folk are petty bureaucrats who get their jollies out of enforcing the rules.

At my old firm, I developed a relationship with a an architect client through moonlighting on small residential work that led to him hiring my employer for three major projects. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars in fee.

 

[moltenmetal]

glass99, that's exactly why I try my best not to work for companies with HR departments. An HR department sends the message to me that the firm is too big, and the likelihood that I am treated like a human being rather than as a "resource" while working there is too small for my liking.

TheTick: that's often the case, when being transparent about it basically is the same as having the employer say no. The OP talks about stamping drawings if I'm not mistaken. Pretty easy to get caught that way.

 

[Maui]

Your employer told you no. If you don't accept that decision, then you need to find a new employer.

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[glass99]

moltenmetal: 100% agreement about HR departments. Are you a Dilbert fan? When I worked at a firm with an HR director I used to dream at night of revenge for all the little humiliations I was forced to put up with.

 

[civengineer1234567]

Thanks for everyone's input, I'm certainly more knowledgeable on the subject. From my impression of Company X, I'm not surprised that they've elected to play it safe by banning all employment in the same industry, despite whether it's a competitive situation or not. Ultimately, I've always wanted to run a business and it seems that Company Y can eventually allow that opportunity while gaining experience and growing their business during this time. But I cannot provide for my family without the salary and benefits of Company X right now. I think my next step will be to provide a written proposal to my company to see if it's a solid "no". If it is, then I may start looking for other employers that is more in the municipal engineering departments or somewhere else that would allow the outside employment.