Owner geotechnical engineer problems 1

[TripleAYUDA]

Dear all

I am the client's representative, working with a 2 story building that was initially designed to be supported on a shallow foundation, no geotechnical investigation was carried out and it was simply assumed that the ground is dense sand with an allowable bearing capacity of 100 kpa.

Once I was hired for the project I immediately requested a soil investigation which in turn we found out that the soil is made of 6 m of compressible clay followed by 6 m of dense sand. SPT values in the clay layer range between 5 - 15 and 30 - 60 in the sand layer, with groundwater level close to the surface at 2 m. As a result pile foundation was chosen.

The designer is "a structural engineer", initially he was pressing that the shallow foundation will work but consolidation settlement is about 55mm. At the same time, he does not have experience in pile design. We have lateral loads up 700KN which also need to be analyzed. The designer requested additional compensation for the new foundation design which we do not agree with as it was all his fault.

I would like to hear your feedback and experience in a similar situation

Thanks

 

[dik]

I find it difficult to see that the designer would be working in a vacuum...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

 

[LittleInch]

You can take this to the limit but if I was you I would try and negotiate this.

So he did some work which now turns out to be wrong. So discount that work from the pile foundation work he now has to do.

Or just say 30% off?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[TripleAYUDA]

Hi guys
Thanks for the feedback, the client's position is that in case the designer fails to comply with the contract condition, we will hire another Geotech firm to finish the design since we have retained part of the total amount of the design fee which will be used for payment.

He act alone, there are no documents or proof that the client agreed to move on with a shallow foundation without Geotech's investigation.

 

[le99]

You are changing the story. It was told that the "owner" is responsible for conducting the preliminary soil exploration but didn't do it (with reason unknown). I sense you and the owner are trying to find excuses not to pay to make up for a soured relationship. Good luck with that.

 

[hokie66]

Confusion reigns by your use of ‘designer’, ‘structural engineer’, ‘EOR’, and your statement that there was no EOR when the decision was made not to do a geotechnical investigation.

Now you say you are hiring another geotechnical engineer to finish the design. Who is going to finish the structural design, as that will have to change with the deep foundation?

 

[dik]

It would be nice to know what the 'other side' of the story is, and the history.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

 

[TripleAYUDA]

Hi
(1) The contract required the foundation to be defined after soil investigation.
(2) The designer ignores it and proceeds with a shallow foundation and drawings were produced.
(3) Geotech was hired and requested Geotech investigation turn out piles are required.
(4) Designer requested additional payment for pile design
(5) Owner refuses any additional payment for pile design

Contractual speaking, if the designer or contractor made a mistake/error in his design, he is not entitled to additional compensation. At the present moment, the designer is willing to proceed with the revision.

 

[dik]

Thanks for the summary... There's a big step between 1 and 2. Was the EOR aware that a geotech report was required? Was the owner aware that a geotech report had not been prepared? Was the foundation discussed with the owner prior to proceeding and was the owner aware the foundation work was progressing? Who is the designer? the EOR (aka engineer)? or someone else?

Most engineers in this area would not proceed if a geotech report was stipulated. The process seems so unusual.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

 

[TripleAYUDA]

Yes, the procedure is unusual.

Well, the design firm mentioned that they knew well the area reason why they were confident that the soil is dense sand.
The owner did not have an engineer on the owner's side at the time project was being discussed, this was done later after project drawings were completed.

Probably too much confidence in the ground condition led the design firm to make this sort of decision.

 

[dik]

Thanks...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

 

[geotechguy1]

How much does a two storey building weigh, really?

Is 55mm of settlement really to much?

How accurate is a settlement calculation?

How accurate is an SPT in clay?

Is this a two storey building in the middle of nowhere, or are you building a two storey building in an area where all the surrounding buildings are two storey plus founding on shallow foundations?

 

[TripleAYUDA]

Axial loads that go up to 2500 kN
25mm settlement required
SPT is not accurate in clay, still, clay parameters such as Su were obtained from SPT and PI.
The building is in the same area, but the building owner already complained about visual cracks which the owner want to avoid.

 

[Brad805]

Owner sets up a ridiculous procedure and then balks at paying for additional services. I can't imagine the fees are much compared to the project cost. These are huge red flags. This is where a smart lawyer sits down the parties and explains what it would cost to sort this out the long and painful way. Parties reach an agreement and move on or part company.

"Is 55mm of settlement really to much?" Do you like your doors to open? If so, yes, too much.

 

[le99]

I still have the feeling that the owner, who is responsible for the soil investigation by contract, wanted to save a few dollars and asked the designer to take the neighboring building as the base for the design. The designer went along and thought the owner had agreed to start the work by asking him to use presumptive soil pressure rather than the soil report. the relationship between the two parties has soured for unknown reasons, another geotechnical engineer then is brought in, and ....

If the designer behaves so badly, why retain him to complete the work, on which the owner is not willing to pay.?

 

[dik]

Axial loads of 2500kN = 562K... with a roof load and two floor loads, the tributary area is about 40'x40' give or take a bit. Loads seem a tad high, for these areas...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

 

[theCorkster]

I wonder if the structural engineer documented his discussion with owner that it was his opinion that there was no need for a geotechnical study?

I wonder why a structural engineer would take on the potential liability of telling a client that a geo study was not required?

Why would the owner believe the structural engineer's opinion if he had told the structural engineer about the cracks in the nearby building?

With this information about distress, why wouldn't the structural engineer go and look at the distress the owner was concerned about?