Owner of company changes timesheet 11

[MetalFighter]

My timesheet is usually about 90-95% billable each week. However, I notice that after the owner of our company reviews timesheets for payroll, all my non-billable time has miraculously disappeared into the billable projects' time. Most times its rounding half hours up to full hours and things like that. But there are other times when whole hours are being added to a client's project that was actually time spent on non-billable tasks.

Is this ethical? I think I know the answer, but the owner is adamant that its fine.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Make sure you're not in the building if your client decides to demand an audit. And while it might be true that this is a common practice (our youngest son quit a job a few years ago over this very issue) it does not mean that this is not in essence theft-by-another-means.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Qshake]

Not only would I say it's unethical, I'd call it illegal from my viewpoint. We are audited quite a bit and too many rules regarding the completion of timesheets. We also have electronic timesheets and as an approving manager, I can't physically change the numbers. I have to discuss the time with the staff to determine if time in question is billable or not. In most cases I already know but occaisionally there'll be a gray area of "time spent cataloging calculations for a project when it's done. and is it for our benefit or the benefit of the client" type of thing.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[IRstuff]

Since I charge to government contracts, it would be not only unethical, but also illegal, and I would get my butt put in jail if I were to do something like that. You should make hardcopies of everything you submit from now on; date and sign them as you collect them. Start looking for a new job; this one, while it may not necessarily land you in jail, might just taint your reputation by association, and that could be a difficult thing to overcome.

Run, as fast as you can, toward the exits; don't look back. Someone who does that level of cheating could do other cheating things, equally bad or worse, towards you or a design. You should immediately compare delivered drawings/reports against what you submitted, as well as verify that you haven't gotten cheated on your pay.

TTFN

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[SAITAETGrad]

People are drawing some pretty broad conclusions from not very much information.

If your customer has no other means to determine value for money than the ratio of billable hours they have bigger problems than your boss's (presumed) unethical skim.

 

[Ron]

Data are the backbones of engineering, in whatever form.

Data should not be compromised in any form.

Timesheets are data.

I have and would again fire someone on the spot for falsifying data...in any respect.

Clients expect integrity in our data. They expect integrity in us. To do less compromises our individual and collective integrity, thereby demeaning the profession.

It is unethical and as Qshake noted, illegal in some respects. Don't be a party to it.

 

[IRstuff]

"they have bigger problems than your boss's (presumed) unethical skim. "

There's nothing you can do about your customer's issues and they wouldn't directly affect your reputation, employability, and incarceration. Your boss' illegal and fraudulent actions and billings will.

TTFN

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[patprimmer]

There was a movie staring Tom Cruise where this was featured in a law firm. I think it was called The Firm.

It is unethical.

It is fraud.

I am sure fraud is illegal in all developed countries.

Fraud is theft by deception.

Theft of time is the most common form of theft in business, and even a personal phone call or idle chatter at the coffee machine technically falls into this category. Certainly calling in sick when not sick does.

Little fibs on tax returns are also a very common form of fraud.

I guess most people excuse or overlook the minor infringements, however this seems a major infringement to me. I would classify your boss as a shrewd business man. Shrewd businessman in these cases is code for crook.

Regards
Pat
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[jmw]

People are drawing some pretty broad conclusions from not very much information.

True.
But valid.
There is a legal term that covers this:
"falsis in unum, falsis in omnibus" and lawyers are the guys who will be involved if it is discovered.
So it is a pretty fair extension to assume that if he is cheating on the time sheets, he has to be considered as probably also performing some other frauds.
And, as IRstuff suggests, he risk to MetalFighter is what sticks to MetalFighter and hence a valid suggestion to check out what else maybe going on .... and we have another thread where a boss is condoning/colluding with a client who is changing drawings to show this vulnerability.

At some point the concerns will escalate.
If you find something more is going on, at what point does it become an issue of "to report this or not report it to the "authorities".

It seems to me that all too often in these threads the advice is "start looking for another" job. Do we hand that out too often? These are tough times and jobs are hard to get.

But I think the answer is that when you consider what is at stake, this is often the very best advice and should not be overlooked.
In some cases, and there is thread current where it is the case, the advice is to get out now, with or without another job to go to.
In most cases looking is a precaution, having a job offer in hand is insurance for tackling that tough issue and in some cases it is a necessary move.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TheTick]

Whatever you do, don't sign anything after it has been doctored. Keep your end of the process clean.

 

[casseopeia]

Definitely unethical and probably illegal. There seems to be an explosion of this behavior. It still does not make it right.



"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[IRstuff]

No doubt many companies are struggling to survive; e.g., Borders Books' demise. That may well spur such cheating, but desperation is not a valid legal underpinning.

I don't suggest bailing lightly, but your personal and professional reputation is at stake; those two things are part and parcel to what makes you an employable engineer. While it's tough enough to find a job with a decent reputation, just consider how much harder it would be to try an find a job with scandal and accusations of illegal behavior swirling around your head. Even if you are eventually cleared, mud is awfully sticky.

I've only had one such experience myself, but I had Pearl Harbor memos and emails prepared and fully expected that I would soon part company with the sleazer GM that ran the division. Luckily, a GIDEP alert superceded everything, and the GM was only going to be there another couple of months, since he was well on the way to showing consecutive monthly profits. As it was, I left the company about a month after the GM got promoted.

TTFN

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[ajack1]

This again seems another case where on the limited information given the owner does seem in the wrong, however some of the replies seem way over the top to me.

I am sure all timesheets are rounded up or down to some degree, does anyone book out anything in less than a quarter of an hour blocks? If so how far do you go minutes, seconds, nano seconds? Also is a time sheet a legally binding document, I genuinely don’t know?

What the owner is doing would seem unethical and probably illegal, however how many people on here don’t book time and ask for pay to be deducted if they take a personal call during work hours, is that any different?

I assume all those who say he is acting illegally and because he does this must do far worse have never taken a pen from work for personal use, taken personal phone calls in work time, declare every gift they have ever received at a seminar or trade show on their tax returns?

Theft and fraud are easy words to use but I wonder if you took everything that is theft and fraud how full the jails would actually be? How many on here could honestly say they have never committed theft from the company they work for?

 

[IRstuff]

You seem to have missed the part where nonbillable hours were changed to billable.

Rounding and miscellaneous minutes is a different matter, but only if the employee does that himself. For someone else to arbitrarily and always round up billable hours is not a plausible action.

TTFN

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[SNORGY]

There is too hard a line everywhere regarding this "...be 100% billable at all times..." mentality. Employers (typically MBAs) expect "...95% billable or higher...", so if two engineers are at, respectively, 100% and 80%, they turf the guy at 80% and leave the other guy with a 70-hour week.

Within reason, "non-billable" is a cost of doing business in engineering; it is a price to be paid for keeping people retained at the ready. Anyone who doesn't understand that needs to find or start another business.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[MetalFighter]

We are a small company doing entirely private work. There's virtually no chance that we'll ever be audited. If I never say anything to anyone, it will most likely never be discovered. It's already been going on for 10+ years. I've worked there for 5 years and I just recently became aware of it.

You all have confirmed my fears. I suspected it was illegal.

I love working there (for other reasons), and leaving would be very difficult, especially since jobs are so scarce these days.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I completely agree - it is illegal and unethical. Bit I am sure we all know who the biggest offenders of this practice are - LAWYERS!!

Not saying all lawyers - but how can a lawyer work a 200 hour week??

 

[moltenmetal]

Is your work being billed on a fixed price basis? If so, your boss is doing both of you a favour, ensuring that the next time that similar work comes in for bid, he bids enough hours to actually do the work. Not everyone is diligent or honest about how much time they actually spent working on the job when it comes time to fill out their timesheet.

Is the work being paid for on a purely reimbursable basis? If so, you need to know the terms of billing between your firm and your client's firm.

Sometimes, bill-out rates contain a high fraction of overhead and are very strictly only for time directly working on the project, and don't include miscellaneous overhead-related tasks of any kind. The billing structure in this case probably also bills the client for every long distance charge, photocopy or printer page printed, for use of software etc. In cases like that, the photocopier/printer is often "employee of the month"...

In other cases, particularly for long-term projects involving many people for periods of many months or years, these miscellaneous costs might be rolled up into the (lower) overhead rate charged for the hours, but the understanding is that people will be billing 100% of the time they spend on the premises "working", including minor overhead tasks. Even then, there are larger and more obvious overhead tasks that don't get billed, ever.

So it's very important to know what your firm and your client have agreed, in order to understand whether your boss is fraudulently altering your timesheets, or merely correcting errors arising from incorrect assumptions on your part when filling them out.

 

[IRstuff]

"merely correcting errors arising from incorrect assumptions on your part when filling them out. "

And, how is the boss able do this without asking the employee? or, without getting concurrence from the employee that the hours can be shifted?

In defense companies, there are often internal corollary projects that complement contract work, and judiciously choosing which is what is often difficult. But, if changes need to be made, they are ALWAYS done by the employee and initialed by same to indicate concurrence with the changes. Never is there a case where a boss decides on his own, without input from the affect employee, that the hours should be moved into another category. In the old days, when we had paper timecards, we were required to make hardcopies of the timecards to ensure that when an audit was performed, that what was submitted corresponded with what was charged.

If the OP has his own archival copies of his submitted timecards that differ from what was billed, that's a MAJOR problem already, regardless of whether the transfers were justified or not. When you sign off on your timecard, you are certifying the correctness of your charges. To have your charges changed without your knowledge, yet still retaining your original signature certification will most likely get you into hotwater in any audit. You'd have to explain why your charges are the way they were billed, not your manager.

TTFN

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[rowingengineer]

I quite often change my time my employee’s hours to cover things like what they consider to be “learning” while I consider it research or vice versa. Generally this would reflect my discussions at the start of a project with the client. For example, if we are doing an alternative construction bid and we have to get info from a few manufactures, if this is productive to that project it gets charged. Don’t always assume your boss is an idiot.

How could you do anything so vicious? It was easy my dear, don't forget I spent two years as a building contractor. - Priscilla Presley & Ricardo Montalban