P.E. License Issues in Consulting 2

[TXMEEN]

I am about a year away from being eligible to take the PE exam. I have design experience and really enjoy it. I would like to do this on the side as it would not compete with my current employer.

I know that I can not claim myself as an engineer or say that I do engineering work until I pass the exam. Word on the street is you don't want to be caught doing this.

Would it be possible to offer "Design Services" for now? Is a license required to aid in the design everything?

If a PE is required, could I pay the fees of a local PE that does consulting to simply review what I have done?

Has anyone stepped out on their own in this area? I am doing a little research and it seems like finding a market would be quite challenging.

 

[Timelord]

You got it TXMEEN! I don't see anywhere where you specified civil or architectual type work. Hang out your shingle, but don't use the word engineering in the company name. You can offer just about any kind of services that doesn't require a stamp/seal. I've been doing it for over 35 years and never ran afoul of the state board. It seems that the licensed civil/architectual types would like to ursurp the word engineer for themselves. Just look over the posts above to see what I mean. I gotta ask them, how many unlicensed guys do you know that have the title engineer on their business cards and really do complicated engineering? I personally know about a hundred and I live in a small world.

Timelord

 

[rday]

TXMEEN,

Offering engineering consulting services, i.e. your "product" is engineering, is illegal in most places if you are not licensed. It does not matter what you call it.

It does happen, but that does not make it legal. I get the CO news letter, and in every one there are cases of unlicensed practitioners running afoul of the law.

The best advice is to consult the state board.

Timelord,

It looks like, just from the definition in WRS, one need NOT use the term engineer to run afoul of the law in WI.

from the WI revised statutes:

443.01
6)"Practice of professional engineering" includes any professional service requiring the application of engineering principles and data, in which the public welfare or the safeguarding of life, health or property is concerned and involved, such as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, or responsible supervision of construction, alteration, or operation, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, projects, bridges, plants and buildings, machines, equipment, processes and works. A person offers to practice professional engineering if the person by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way represents himself or herself to be a professional engineer ; or who through the use of some other title implies that he or she is a professional engineer ; or who holds himself or herself out as able to practice professional engineering.

443.02
3) No person may offer to practice architecture or professional engineering or use in connection with the person's name or otherwise assume, use or advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is an architect or professional engineer or advertise to furnish architectural or professional engineering services unless the person has been duly registered or has in effect a permit under s. 443.10 (1) (d).

 

[Timelord]

There seems to be a difference between "Professional Engineering" and just plain engineering in the statute which makes my point. I didn't say anybodies card said professional engineer, just "engineer". Are you trying to tell us that NASA engineers (one example) must be licensed to work or call themselves engineers? Your crazy if you think that. Go ahead and turn them in to their state board for having engineer on their card and see how far you get.

my final comment,

Timelord

 

[MDGroup]

This is a very interesting topic, and I appreciate everyone's comments.

Here's my $.02 (as noted above, your state board has the only opinion that matters)

I don't feel that being an engineering consultant automatically requires that you be a licensed PE. I think it is based entirely on the projects that you work on, and whether those projects are required to be reviewed and stamped.

As stated in rday's post. 'Professional Engineering' services are required for projects involving 'public welfare or safety of life, health, or property' (ie Bridges, Buildings, ...) And those projects would require a PE to perform the work.
But if the project doesn't require a PE review and signature, a consultant should be able to perform the engineering services without a PE license.

Example,
I previously worked for a company designing communications equipment. We designed, manufactured, and sold the products. No one in the company was a PE, and none of the products ever needed to be reviewed by a PE.
After leaving, suppose I worked for them as a consultant and designed the exact same products. Why would I now require a PE license?

Think of the millions of small companies that design and manufacture engineered parts/products/goods everyday. If they all required a PE on staff or as a consulatant, the cost of everything would sky-rocket.

So, if they don't need a PE to design it in-house, why would a consultant need a PE license to design it out-of-house?

I think there is a huge difference between advertising 'Engineering Services' and advertising 'Professional Engineering Services'. If the scope of the project requires it to be reviewed and approved by a PE, you cannot work on that project. But, I think you can advertise yourself as an 'engineer' and work on engineering projects that aren't at that next level.

 

[tsgrue]

.

LMonaco wrote: "I think there is a huge difference between advertising 'Engineering Services' and advertising 'Professional Engineering Services'."

At least in the United States, regardless of our personal opinions, what holds in these matters are the State licensure laws and Board regulations/rules. Neither our personal opinions nor the opinions of an attorney supersede these. As with other laws, regulations, and rules, these are decided upon by the legislature and the courts. You can always lobby and vote for modifications!

Every State of which I am familiar with the licensure laws, regulations, and rules (about 12 of them), including the 3 in which I am licensed, don't distinguish between 'Engineering Services' and 'Professional Engineering Services'. If it meets the definition of engineering, then it is engineering no matter what you call it and you must be licensed as an engineer to perform such services with generally two exceptions: 1) other licensed professionals (land surveyors, landscape architects, etc) may have overlap in the definition of their practice and that of engineering; and 2) "in-house" engineering for manufacturing processes and certain utilities may have exemptions as the health, safety, and welfare of the public is addressed through other means (public utilities commissions, public product safety laws, etc).

.


tsgrue: site engineering, stormwater
management, landscape design, ecosystem
rehabilitation, mathematical simulation

http://hhwq.blogspot.com

 

[rday]

I think the definition is clear. Maybe I should repost the very first sentence: "Practice of professional engineering" includes any professional service requiring the application of engineering principles . The definition also includes machines, equipment and process, not just buildings and bridges. By the definition if I claim I can "design" your building, I have represented myself as able to practice professional engineering.

NASA does not offer engineering services to anyone. Nor do any number of companies that build products we use every day. NASA operates space vehicles and manufacturing companies offer goods (automobiles, toasters & widgets). I have never said people working under an industrial exemption were not or may not call themselves engineers.

I clearly stated ""Offering engineering consulting services, i.e. your "product" is engineering, is illegal in most places if you are not licensed."" Calling it design not engineering is like saying "Officer, I wasn't tailgating, I was drafting."

LMonaco,

I think most state statutes would disagree with you. In all the states I have worked in the law is fairly clear. If you offer engineering services you need to be licensed. Sure exemptions exist, that is why the state board should be contacted.

As I said before:
The best advice is to consult the state board.

 

[EddyC]

California regulations allow non-PEs to offer consulting engineering services to manufacturing companies, in regard to product design engineering. Probably most other states would allow the same practice, even though not specifically identified in their regulations. But you would be at the mercy of the state board on this issue. Best bet to avoid any potential problems is to get your PE. If you truly have the skills to offer engineering services, then you should be able to get your PE as well. This was the intent of the PE laws when they were originally enacted years ago, that all qualified engineers become licensed.

 

[cincibcats]

Here's a situation that I've never seen come up on here. How does everyone here feel about offering testing services that may include information and procedure that one can only learn through engineering school or years of experience? These may include strain gaging, vibration analysis, etc, but no design. Is a PE required then?

 

[DonPhillips]

I think it is still practicing engineering, which is what most states regulate. Design is one way of practicing. Most states require reports to be sealed, which is what I would expect your product to be.


Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[DRC1]

Why not work for a small consulting engineer on a partime basis? You do not have to be a pe for that and you have 2 benifits: 1.) you get additional experience. Many think that they need 5 years experience after graduation. What is required is 5years of acceptable experience. Often this equates to an additional 6 months or a year before the exam. Having additional experience under a PE can prevent that. plus it gives you another PE reference who is familar with your work. 2.) Aside from the designing side there is a whole business side to business. Workig with a small consultant, you can get a good idea about that side of the business.

 

[Jerryls]

I have a question regarding a small company name? I am an EE. I graduated college about 35 years ago. I mostly worked for companies as an employee, but also did some design work for various others on a 1099 basis. In the late 70's I registered a company name in NJ as xxxx Consulting Co.
After reading all this argumentation regarding the use of "engineering" without a PE license, I'm wondering whether I can use my company name? Consulting implies professional advise!
BTW, I looked into getting a PE license a few times, but I was discouraged by some of the requirements such as having a sponser recommendation and the 16 hours of testing. I'm sure I could have passed easily when I graduated(I understand 95% do), but it would be very difficult 35 years later. I'm also sure most of the existing older PE's would also fail the tests now if they had to take them, despite the update courses they take as a requirement for renewal.

 

[Ashereng]

Jerryls,

You should probably start a new thread with your question.

On a different note, I would not assume just because someone is old and years removed from school that they can't pass the PE technical exams. I know personally just such people who have passed - and with relatively little "studying".

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[spongebob007]

rday,

I don't think your definition is clear because you left the rest of the sentence out.

"Practice of professional engineering" includes any professional service requiring the application of engineering principles and data, in which the public welfare or the safeguarding of life, health or property is concerned and involved, such as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, or responsible supervision of construction, alteration, or operation, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, projects, bridges, plants and buildings, machines, equipment, processes and works."

Granted I am not a lawyer, but when I read this my interpretation of this statue is that not all engineering services would fall under the general term "Practice of professional engineering." Would I be in viloation of the law if I offered "Software Engineering Consulting Services"?

I am very interested in this subject because this year I started doing consulting work on the side and I am not a PE. I have always assumed that a PE was only required for Civil Engineering type work where the safety of the general public is concerned.

I got started in consulting when I changed jobs at the beginning of this year and I was retained by my former employer to do some projects for them on a part time basis. Through word of mouth I have picked up two other clients. I am a specialist in acoustics and structural dynamics. My consulting work includes design and analysis as well as some other Mechanical engineering tasks. My clients are all manufacturing companies and in no way does my work directly effect the safety and welfare of the general public. Even after reading the law, I am not convinced that I am breaking any laws by doing what I do.

 

[GregLocock]

"any public or private ... machines, equipment, processes and works."

That sentence looks more like an ambit claim for jurisdiction over everything except natural features rather than something that would stand up in court.







Cheers

Greg Locock

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