P&ID Symbology 1

[jcfoley]

**I apologize upfront as this is a cross post. I placed it ISA Controls forum but have not seen many responses. ***

I have been in the equipment industry (compressors mainly) for the past 11 years. I have seen more combinations of symbols used on P&ID that I really care to. However, I have been asked to write a company standard. I sort of thought that ISA-5 would contain everything that I needed to know. For instruments, this is the case. However, for Valves, process lines, hoses & such, ISA leaves this stuff out or only addresses a few types. Does anyone know of another ISA standard for these? Any other standard such as API, ASME, ANSI, etc would also work. Our customer based is in the oil patch. ANY comments will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris Foley
Midland, TX

 

[gmorin]

I ran into this issue from the other end. I'm on a project where I'm designing the balance of plant scope on a large pollution control project. My client asked my company (an A/E) and the major equipment supplier for the project to use the same symbology on our diagrams. We both claimed to have ISA based symbols, but the differences were huge. As you mention, ISA does not go very far into the mechanical realm of valves and pumps.

We disagreed on basic stuff like ball valves.

The upshot is that there isn't an industry standard that I know of (power industry - maybe petroleum is more organized) All the big players use their standard symbols, which don't agree with each other entirely.

Best you can do, I think, is get a standard sheet from a few projects and pick what you need from them.


Good luck

Greg

 

[jcfoley]

As a manufacturer, we face even larger problems. Imagine if you were suddenly given a set of specifications in a foreign language (one that you do not speak). That is exactly how the shop feels when the P&IDs change so suddenly. Basically, engineering then becomes an interpreter. This is a waste of resources. I have found it extremely difficult to convince people of the confusion and $$$ this cost us. I sort of hope that someone knows of an API spec that could help.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[pipingdesigner]

I agree guys, I've worked on contract for a number of years now, on behalf of client, contractor and consultant, and agree that there is a real need for standardisation on P&ID symbology.

Follow the advice of gmorin

"Best you can do, I think, is get a standard sheet from a few projects and pick what you need from them."



pipingdesigner

http://www.pipingdesigners.com

 

[Montemayor]

Guys:

You are all on the right track. But gmorin, unfortunately, is absolutely correct in practicality and common sense. I've been doing compressor applications - which involve generation, modification, revision, & interpretation of P&IDs during the greater part of my 45 years in the business. I've done this on both sides of the Atlantic and I can vouch for the fact that there have been no real, thorough, & comprehensive standards on P&ID symbology - either from the ISA, DIN, the Europeans, or anyone else. And I've never had occasion to raise my hopes that there ever will be one. There are far too many obstacles and personal/professional/nationalistic interests (or lack of interest) involved.

The best path to follow is gmorin's suggestion. I never give up; and neither will I, in this case. But one has to confront an engineering reality and get practical in order to resolve an immediate problem. That doesn't mean we stop praying - but I'm willing to bet the expected resultant "standards" won't materialize in my lifetime. Sorry Chris. Keep fighting, though; maybe your generation will be the difference.

 

[HEC]

Seems like a common theme here, my experience across several industries (paper, dairy and pharmaceutical) has been the same. Depending upon the industry/consultant/day of the week, the P&ID symbols are different! Perhaps there is an opportunity here to form a standard from the experience in this forum?

Mark Hutton
hutton4eng@picknowl.com.au

 

[MortenA]

The fact is that the symbols that one person might find logical and clear is the exact opposite from the viewpoint of the next guy.

Also - whats needed at one plant/facility might not be enough at the next (and vice versa).

We just have to live with this

Best regards

Morten

 

[gmorin]

Yep.

The problem is that too many companies, in too many industries have been doing P&ID's for too long. My (100 yr old) company is part of the problem - we have some weird symbols in our standards that I haven't seen elsewhere in the power industry.

 

[jcfoley]

Actually, I have dozens. Note the plural. This was the reason for the original post.

At this point, I am going to modify our current symbol sheet to ISA-5 for everything that this code addresses. For anything not addressed, I will have to use what we see most often in the industry.

Thanks to everybody for their input. To be honest, when I started this little project, I did not expect it to be this complex. So my few hours is going to quickly turn into a few days! Well, that's engineering for you.....

Chris

 

[jsummerfield]

Check the Process Industry Practices site for P&IDs

http://www.pip.org/downloads/Sample-PID.pdf

John

 

[codeeng]

As jsummerfiled points out PIP's (PIC001) are the best way to go in the absence of any specific client requirements.

 

[jcfoley]

John,
Thanks for the above link. The sample coincides with CADWork P&ID. This gives me a bit of leverage with some of our customers.



Chris

 

[alprieto2003]

Regarding this post, previously I posted this one:

"Hello Everybody,

I would like to have help with suggestions on books or similar about how to make good PFD and P&I drawings, we already have the ISA 5.1 standard, but we would like to have additional information like books with several examples for the different kind of situations that you may find in a process plant.
I work for an engineering company and we have experience in chemical plants design but would like to have more information on the matter since now we are working on different processes than our traditional line of work.

Thank you for any recommendations and ideas."

Besides the PIP practice, I would like to know if there is a good book on this matter.

Thank you