Parking Space Requirements

[cieg22]

I'm laying out a parking lot for a ballroom/assembly hall facility. The Township code states that one space must be provided for every 3 permanent seats, but that 1 space must be provided for every temporary seat. Can anyone explain why the requirement for temporary seats is so much higher?

Thanks.

 

[msquared48]

Because they can be put closer together and put anywhere as opposed to those bolted down. There is also a tendency to overload the occupancy rating with tempolrary seating, so increasing the required parking stalls limits that possibility (not considering car pooling).

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[cieg22]

Thanks! Still confused though. If those temp seats get packed in close together, wouldn't that already be reflected in the number of seats count?

 

[msquared48]

The use of Temporary seats as opposed to Fixed seats affects the fire rating, whether or not the building has to be sprinklered, number of restroom stalls, number of exits, and maximum occupancy loads, not just the parking requirements.

From the standpoint that so many temporary seats are allowed, I guess it could be planned for. But, is the fire marshall or a building official going to be at each event to count the people and make sure the occupancy is not exceeded? Never seen one yet. Unless someone complains, the FM or BO rarely hear about it. So, the only way is to go with all fixed seating, which the code is obviously encouraging you to do.


Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[GoldDredger]

My guess is they want to provide 1:3 parking for permanent seating, and then add onto that sum at a 1:1 for the additional temporary seats. Perhaps the idea is that temporary seating won't be that significant a number with respect to the permanent seating.

What the logic behind that is I'm not sure. In my opinion that seems pretty high for the temporary seats, and the town may end up with a very large empty parking lot most of the time. For example in my area (Dallas/Ft Worth) stadium seating for events like HS football games is around 1:5 parking space per event seat.

I've had luck getting variances to parking requirements with City planning/zoning departments by just discussing it with them. A good resource is to compare with similar jurisdictions in the area and see what their requirements are.

If the property shares parking with adjacent uses, like retail or commercial, you might be able to convince them that the uses will not coincide. (For example a bank use would be 9-5, and an assembly use likely in the evening)

A ballroom/dance hall might be a very unique situation as well. I can imagine a building with very few permanent seats but with great capacity for temporary seats. Perhaps a parking requirement based on square footage of the building. For example restaurant 1 space/100 sq ft, retail 1 space/200 sq ft, or office space 1/300 sq ft, etc. A similar use might be a church, see what the town's parking requirement is for that.

Perhaps taking the building occupancy rating and coming up with some reasonable ratio to parking.

 

[cieg22]

Thanks, all. I know I need to talk to the architect about this, but can anyone offer guidance on determining the number of temporary seats? I assume the values listed in IBC Sect 1004 relate to max occupancy. Are there also guidelines on how to determine the actual number of seats that may yield a lower number? Is that just based on whatever is shown?

I only ask because the Township code also states that at minimum, 1 space per two people shall be provided as based on the max occupancy determined by the building and fire code. Since the Twp code directs you back to the NFPA Code and the IBC, I assume that means we need to provide either max occupant load/2 spots or total number of temp seats provided, whichever greater.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

Not that I would recommend this, but if I were the owner, I think I would determine that I will not have any temporary seats. Then I'd do a very conservative real-life estimation of the maximum number of handicap parking stalls that could be needed, and if it exceeds the number as determined by the 3:1 ratio, exceed the minimum requirement by that amount.

 

[cieg22]

Thanks, but I don't know how I could consider chairs in a ballroom anything other than temporary seats - if I'm missing something though, PLEASE let me know!!!

By the way, GoldDredger, appreciate your lot-sharing idea, but we went down that road already and unfortunately the neighboring properties don't want to play ball.

 

[Hoaokapohaku]

HAHA! That's why I'm not the owner!

 

[BenJohnson]

Haven't you been to a crowded meeting room. After the permanent seats fill up, then people start standing around everywhere. Soon, the maintenance men bring out folding chairs so the overcrowded room can have chairs.

This is common practice, even though dangerous to from a fire code and parking code standpoint.

My guess is the township is trying to anticipate cars parking all over the neighborhood (and lack of access for fire trucks) thus the extra parking.

 

[cieg22]

Ben, shouldn't that temp-seat count already include those folding chairs? I still don't get the one/one ratio. Our room is a meager 2000 sqft, and that translates to 134 spots if we assume ballroom use and 285 for meeting room use. Plus, the fire department wants enough room to turn their truck around in our lot after an emergency. It's going to be a sea of pavement for a building the size of a house.

 

[BenJohnson]

Having lived with bureaucracy most of my life, I can almost guarantee that whoever made that rule about 1:1 parking did so without firm data. Often times some high city official (often police or fire chief), complained because he had a problem at some event with gridlock parking. The reaction sees to have been an over-reaction.

Many times everybody drives alone in one car to these events. So 1 parking place per 3 permanent seats sounds like too few parking places. Rather that go through the long process of changing the parking ordinance for permanent seating, this may be a knee jerk reaction on how to solve consistently over-crowded parking lots by changing the temporary seating parking requirement.

Government runs more on emotion than on logic. I discovered the hard way that it is best for private engineers to stay out of those political decisions. You don't want to be labeled as a trouble maker. Rather encourage to Township board to hire an engineer to do a complete review of parking requirements in the District. That way you will get a logical solution.

 

[MrBachelor]

Another opportunity for the parking would be to provide some overflow in the form of stabilized grass parking. Grasspave is one product name that comes to mind and it is rated for truck traffic:

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/grasspave2.html

You may be able to negotiate a hard surface parking lot for a certain number of spaces (based on the 1:3 seats requirement or max OC of 1:2), then add the overflow parking for the additional seating required for the temporary seats. The client gets the nice grassed areas they can use and the city gets the parking the code requires. Additionally, the grasspave will help reduce any stormwater requirements you may have.





Nate the Great

http://www.ceieng.com

 

[GoldDredger]

Good idea MrBachelor, they did that at the new Dallas Cowboy stadium as well.

 

[cieg22]

Thanks, guys! Love the thoughts and ideas. I will definitely keep those grass pavers in mind!

 

[lennyhanna]

Hi,
When I had my repair concrete driveway I had the same issues...I think it is the fact it can be installed together.
I suggest advising with a concrete contractor on your individual matter.

Lenny

 

[Ron]

Find out the total occupancy limit of the room/building for fire purposes. Make your parking compatible, without regard to other considerations (assuming such will not exceed the other requirements)

Most parking requirements are part of LOCAL land development ordinances. They are not standard and are often the whim of local politics. To determine the "WHY" of your question, you'll need to dig into the reasons for passing the local ordinance in such a manner. This will usually mean digging through the minutes of boring meetings and finding that the reason is probably because Joe Councilman's brother-in-law's grandmother owns the property around the development and Joe's brother-in-law has pictures from the last Christmas party.