Edited. sorry for Miami Herald paywalled article. It seemed free when I first opened it. Others are clear I believe
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Partial collapse of false Mansard roof at 17500 NW 68th Ave, northwest Miami-Dade County, Florida
- Thread starter AusG
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phamENG
"if a PE signs off on the electrical side, then they're supposed to be an Electrical Engineer."
The world is full of Electrical Engineers. It appears most of them just will not do.
"Why not hire subs directly? Would you recommend somebody who has no idea how a building goes together hire a general contractor..."
I may not. But I do believe that's how it's done in the great state of California. I am, in fact, working on such a house right now. Well, that's not entirely correct. There IS an architect. He is really quite good. I have never met him, though I am the electrical contractor. I may be wrong, but I do believe it will be the general contractor who takes the fall if this building fails. And it will not, as he is quite competetent.
"Hiring a single entity....."
It would appear there would only be a need for hiring TWO entities: one for structural and one for electrical.
I believe that the building departments and the cities and counties, in this matter, want to accept no responsibility or expense, and prefer to pass it off to others. Building owners clearly are technically ignorant, and have an incentive to think their buildings are wonderful. Therefore, it will be compulsory to have a Licensed Registered Very Special Person to accept the responsibility. Including, presumably, the jail time, for negligent homicide.
What I am wondering is why the people who are judged competent to wire these buildings are judged not competent to evaluate the wiring of these buildings. Nor, for that matter, are the building inspectors.
spsalso
"if a PE signs off on the electrical side, then they're supposed to be an Electrical Engineer."
The world is full of Electrical Engineers. It appears most of them just will not do.
"Why not hire subs directly? Would you recommend somebody who has no idea how a building goes together hire a general contractor..."
I may not. But I do believe that's how it's done in the great state of California. I am, in fact, working on such a house right now. Well, that's not entirely correct. There IS an architect. He is really quite good. I have never met him, though I am the electrical contractor. I may be wrong, but I do believe it will be the general contractor who takes the fall if this building fails. And it will not, as he is quite competetent.
"Hiring a single entity....."
It would appear there would only be a need for hiring TWO entities: one for structural and one for electrical.
I believe that the building departments and the cities and counties, in this matter, want to accept no responsibility or expense, and prefer to pass it off to others. Building owners clearly are technically ignorant, and have an incentive to think their buildings are wonderful. Therefore, it will be compulsory to have a Licensed Registered Very Special Person to accept the responsibility. Including, presumably, the jail time, for negligent homicide.
What I am wondering is why the people who are judged competent to wire these buildings are judged not competent to evaluate the wiring of these buildings. Nor, for that matter, are the building inspectors.
spsalso
spsalso -
My electrical experience is limited to O&M on a ship for several years, and while electrons don't care if they're on a ship or in a building in terms of how they move the codes are certainly quite different. So drawing some on that and my experience in the structural world, I can only come to limited conclusions that may or may not be accurate. To sum it up in a word: scale.
In a house, it's common for the electrical design to be delegated to an electrical contractor. The design of the electrical system for a house is based on some basic calculations as part of the trade permit, and the installation is inspected based on prescriptive requirements of the building code - either the electrical sections of the IRC or of the NEC depending on how the local jurisdiction or the State has structured things.
In a building of the size that we're discussing, I've never worked on one that didn't have an EE on the MEP design team. These buildings typically require a much more complex design effort than houses. So while a good residential electrician may be perfectly suited to assessing an existing installation in a house, they may not be as well suited to assessing the adequacy of installed system in one of these large buildings. Now when it comes to inspecting the condition of existing connections, cladding, conduit, etc. - yes, an electrical contractor could probably do that quite well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the companies that do this use a hybrid approach. Review the system as a whole with an EE (ensure any elevator/HVAC upgrades aren't overloading the system, for instance) while an electrical contractor puts their hands on the wires and makes sure nothing's becoming hazardous.
Why on earth not? That's the GC's job. To coordinate all of the trades and make sure it goes together smoothly. I'm a little confused by your anecdote. It sounds like the GC is doing their job...?
Hiring one entity is going to be easier for a condo board - likely not made up of construction professionals - than hiring two and trying to coordinate the paperwork. One and done is much more appealing to most people with a good grasp of the value of their time.
My electrical experience is limited to O&M on a ship for several years, and while electrons don't care if they're on a ship or in a building in terms of how they move the codes are certainly quite different. So drawing some on that and my experience in the structural world, I can only come to limited conclusions that may or may not be accurate. To sum it up in a word: scale.
In a house, it's common for the electrical design to be delegated to an electrical contractor. The design of the electrical system for a house is based on some basic calculations as part of the trade permit, and the installation is inspected based on prescriptive requirements of the building code - either the electrical sections of the IRC or of the NEC depending on how the local jurisdiction or the State has structured things.
In a building of the size that we're discussing, I've never worked on one that didn't have an EE on the MEP design team. These buildings typically require a much more complex design effort than houses. So while a good residential electrician may be perfectly suited to assessing an existing installation in a house, they may not be as well suited to assessing the adequacy of installed system in one of these large buildings. Now when it comes to inspecting the condition of existing connections, cladding, conduit, etc. - yes, an electrical contractor could probably do that quite well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the companies that do this use a hybrid approach. Review the system as a whole with an EE (ensure any elevator/HVAC upgrades aren't overloading the system, for instance) while an electrical contractor puts their hands on the wires and makes sure nothing's becoming hazardous.
spsalso said:
Why on earth not? That's the GC's job. To coordinate all of the trades and make sure it goes together smoothly. I'm a little confused by your anecdote. It sounds like the GC is doing their job...?
Hiring one entity is going to be easier for a condo board - likely not made up of construction professionals - than hiring two and trying to coordinate the paperwork. One and done is much more appealing to most people with a good grasp of the value of their time.
phamENG
I agree with your point of having an appropriate expert(s) examine a building. But the 40/10 inspection requirement is for "all buildings, except single-family residences, duplexes and minor structures". I see no reason why every one of those requires the expertise of a PE. Or an architect. And yet it is required.
In California, electrical contractors are permitted to do the electrical design for buildings other than houses. I have done so. I have designed and installed a system for a 24 unit apartment building. And the same for some light industrial buildings. I do more than houses.
I am not sure why an EE should be ensuring "any elevator/HVAC upgrades aren't overloading the system". That should have been taken care of during the design and permitting process at initial installation.
I could also question the choice of having architects and PE's be the guarantors of quality, after following the Champlain South. See how well that turned out.
You are correct in your comments about my quoted statement, and I agree with them. I did not at all state things well.
spsalso
I agree with your point of having an appropriate expert(s) examine a building. But the 40/10 inspection requirement is for "all buildings, except single-family residences, duplexes and minor structures". I see no reason why every one of those requires the expertise of a PE. Or an architect. And yet it is required.
In California, electrical contractors are permitted to do the electrical design for buildings other than houses. I have done so. I have designed and installed a system for a 24 unit apartment building. And the same for some light industrial buildings. I do more than houses.
I am not sure why an EE should be ensuring "any elevator/HVAC upgrades aren't overloading the system". That should have been taken care of during the design and permitting process at initial installation.
I could also question the choice of having architects and PE's be the guarantors of quality, after following the Champlain South. See how well that turned out.
You are correct in your comments about my quoted statement, and I agree with them. I did not at all state things well.
spsalso
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