pass rate for ASME Y14.5 certification test 2

[AndrewTT]

I just read on the Tec Ease web site that the pass rate for the senior level test is only 15%. Does anyone know what the pass rate for the technician level test is? I am planning on taking the 2009 technician level test as soon as it is available (~end of January). If the pass rate for the technician test is anywhere near as low as the senior test I will adjust my studying accordingly.

 

[mkcski]

AndrewTT:

FYI: In 1998 I studied about 1 hour, 4-5 days a week for around a year and passed the Senior Level with a 90's score.

Certified Sr. GD&T Professional

 

[pmarc]

I train non-English speaking people to pass GDTP-T exam written in English. Up to this point from out of approximately 80 people trained there was only one person that didn’t pass the exam. In my opiniom that speaks for itself.

Have nothing against Tec-Ease or any other GD&T training company, but if the company offers preparation course for a GDTP certification, it is in its best interest to present it as very difficult to pass without extra assistance.

 

[3DDave]

They are probably reporting the expected rate based on the applicable population, not for those who study. I know 3 people who took the '1994 test; one who had good experience and studied, one a loud mouth who studied, and the third was a loud-mouth know-it-all who didn't need to study. Of them, only the last didn't pass the first time, so that's a 66% pass rate in that tiny sample.

Based on the work of those who haven't studied, I'd say 15% is high, but maybe TecEase finds those who have self-selected.

What is more key is if a lot of the test is 'parrot.' This is the type where phrases are slightly altered from the exact wording of the standard and it is up to the test taker to identify which most accurately parrots the original. 'Parrot' questions require memorization but not much understanding. Taking off points, for example, by not recognizing that a datum cannot be modified; that modifiers only apply to datum features.

I contrast those with 'ferret' questions, where one needs to understand how the rules work to produce results.

'Parrot' questions are popular because they are easy to make into multiple choice questions and true-false questions.

Some are likely to be hard. For example, on

http://gdtseminars.com/2010/09/06/sample-senior-level-questions-for-asme-certification-in-gdt/

, question 3 is a question that is not answerable because the relation between the involved datums -ooops- datum features, isn't specified. Answering it requires making an assumption about the relationship between datum feature B and datum feature A.

 

[Belanger]

Dave -- your beef noted and drawing revised. (Added the perpendicularity.)

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

 

[greenimi]

I train non-English speaking people to pass GDTP-T exam written in English. Up to this point from out of approximately 80 people trained there was only one person that didn’t pass the exam. In my opiniom that speaks for itself.

Well, I think that is because YOU are an excellent teacher. No irony at all. You don't believe me? Look at your own posts here on eng-tips (and how many stars / appreciations you got)

pmarc,
Let the company make some money (that's why they are in business) from the people who are not autodidacts.

 

[AndrewTT]

I learned a new word.

So, if I got all 6 questions from the above link correct (thought they were pretty easy) am I probably good for the technician test?

 

[Belanger]

No guarantees on that, Andrew
It's meant to just give a flavor for the type of questions that might appear.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

 

[CheckerHater]

@Belanger about Sample test question 1:

Do we still use definition of "derived median plane" as "imperfect plane"?

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[Belanger]

Oh brother -- now 3DDave has put all of this on center stage...

CH, recall that the certification test is based on the 1994 standard. So paragraph 1.3.15 would say yes. And in 2009, paragraph 1.3.30 also uses the same terminology of "imperfect" plane.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

 

[CheckerHater]

Given definition of plane as "theoretically perfect surface" could we add it to our virtual "errata list"?

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[3DDave]

JP - Google helped. I searched for Y14.5 test questions.

The funny/sad result was discussion from a guy who said he had studied the heck out of the '2009 standard, back in 2012 and done really poorly on the ASME test, not realizing that it was based on a nearly 20 year old version.

Makes me believe that if ASME wants to get in the for-profit testing business they need to develop and vet the test among the committee members before the related standard can be issued, so they all hit the market at the same time. Waiting more than a decade is unacceptable. I am also curious if/why they require some proof of industry experience. That makes no sense because it suggests that industry is sufficiently informed to reliably vet the users; if so, there would be no need to certify anyone.

 

[AndrewTT]

I have read people's posts saying they have seen drafts of the new version of Y14.5. I don't understand how you can work on or come out with a new revision to the standard and not have the test available for the last revision yet.

I don't want to get certified to the 1994 standard if it is about to be 2 revisions old. Yet I cannot get certified to the current standard because there is no test available. Here I sit, still waiting.

 

[mkcski]

AndrewTT:

I was at a Y14.5 Committee meeting in Dayton OH in 2010 and "discovered" that members are not compensated by ASME for the time. The entire standards system is (indirectly) financed by companies, gov't entities and other organizations who "use" the standard. In this light consider the effect of a reduced industrial base in the USA. At the 2010 meeting there was a discussion that several active members could no longer attend because they no longer had jobs at the company who was financing there participation. Sad but true. So I assume one reason for the "delay" in updating tests is a lack of adequate participation (membership) to keep all of the sub-committees staffed. Food for thought.

Certified Sr. GD&T Professional

 

[pylfrm]

Oh brother -- now 3DDave has put all of this on center stage...

Apologies in advance, but while we're on the subject...

For sample question #3, I'm getting 16.15 as the answer. Imagine datum feature B is a perfect cylinder of diameter 152.5 everywhere except for a flat spot at the top that results in 151.5 local size. Do you agree?


pylfrm

 

[Belanger]

Maybe -- I'll sketch it out on Monday and see. (Others can chime in too if that sounds right.)

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

 

[pmarc]

Well, I think that is because YOU are an excellent teacher. No irony at all. You don't believe me? Look at your own posts here on eng-tips (and how many stars / appreciations you got)

Thank you, but I would not say it is a matter of what kind of a teacher I am - at least not in case of preparation course for GDTP certification. One of the most important things (if not the most important) is that these folks are told they have to study the standard carefully before they go to the exam. The training I do for them is only 10 hours long (1 hour per week), so it is technically impossible to touch in details everything that is required to pass the test. They have to study the book on their own afterward. There is a body of knowledge document available for free on the ASME website (also in form of official Y14.5.2 standard) that is very useful to determine what needs to be studied in particular.

Perhaps I shouldn't, but I always tell them that this test (Technologist level) is not to recognize how good they are in GD&T, but is to check their knowledge of the content of the standard, and that this obviously has some pros and cons. One of the pros is that they may actually have no idea on how to properly apply GD&T on real drawings yet they can become GDTP certificate holders (that is unfortunately one of the biggest flaws of the exam on both levels, in my opinion). One of the cons is that even the most experienced guys that went through hundreds of different real-life applications of GD&T, will most likely have difficulties to pass the exam, because in the test they may find questions about things like minimum allowable distance between dimension line and the part contour, or proper selection of different line styles (chain vs. phantom vs. dashed vs. thick vs. thin, etc.). Who cares about remembering that in reality? One may always open the book and check such details when needed, right?

There is a lot to say about this subject...

Do we still use definition of "derived median plane" as "imperfect plane"?

Given definition of plane as "theoretically perfect surface" could we add it to our virtual "errata list"?

When the draft of the new version of Y14.5 was released for public review, among many other comments I submitted the very same question to the committee. Since the Derived Median Plane is imperfect, then how is it possible that they call it "plane", which by mathematical nature is perfect? It was in January 2016 - I am still waiting for a reply.

For sample question #3, I'm getting 16.15 as the answer. Imagine datum feature B is a perfect cylinder of diameter 152.5 everywhere except for a flat spot at the top that results in 151.5 local size. Do you agree?

Since J-P let others to chime in, I agree with the above. The OD B can be also imagined as a perfect cylinder of diameter 151.5 produced with maximum possible perpendicularity error for that size = 1.0.

 

[AndrewTT]

Attached is the calculation they are using to arrive at 16.65, which the question writer states as the "correct" answer.

 

[mkcski]

I agree the analysis that pmarc made:

Since J-P let others to chime in, I agree with the above. The OD B can be also imagined as a perfect cylinder of diameter 151.5 produced with maximum possible perpendicularity error for that size = 1.0.

So the answer is the one pylfrm gave earlier - 16.15.



Certified Sr. GD&T Professional

 

[pmarc]

EDIT: LMB = 151.5 would be correct if B was referenced primary datum feature at LMB in the position callout.

Since B has been called out secondary, LMB calculation must include orientation relationship between OD and the datum plane A. That makes LMB = 150.5 = 151.5-1.0.