Pay cut to go back to consulting? 1

[RattlinBog]

Could use a reality check. I'm a PE with 7 years of experience--4 in consulting and now 3 working for an owner/facility (edit)--all heavy industry. Just completed a civil engineering M.S. while working full time. I feel stuck growth and mentorship-wise at my current role. I enjoy learning and working as a team; that's scarce here. I'm the only structural in a tiny engineering team. There are some other reasons I'm considering a change, but I don't want to make this post too long. However, I'm compensated well. Making low six figures, generous bonuses, cheap insurance, and 6-8% 401k match, 15 min commute, all in a low cost of living area.

The postings for midlevel structural engineers in my area show a salary range of about $75k-$100k. I haven't applied anywhere yet, but I did start an informal conversation with someone I know at one of the firms I'm interested in. Nothing concrete, but he brought up $85k base salary as a discussion point. That would be about a 20% cut for me. Their insurance premiums are double mine and 401k contribution is only at end of year and varies based on profit, too.

Truthfully, I'm not a great negotiator. If I apply at this firm, I'd like to ask for $95k. I'm a bit worried of insulting them and somehow ending the conversation abruptly if I go too high. However, some other folks have told me to never take a pay cut when switching jobs. But I don't know how I feel about asking for >$105k when going from industry/owner to A&E commercial/consulting.

I'd appreciate any advice or past experience! I'm taking things slow for now...not in a rush. There are about 4-6 open midlevel structural positions in my area, and most have been open for months...

 

[MintJulep]

"Owner" is pretty close to the top of the monkey pile, so yeah, opportunities for promotion are limited.

But, as an owner you presumably have enough clout to influence the direction of the company to make it more interesting for you (and everyone else).

Also, at that level you should be doing the mentoring, not being mentored. Develop some training materials for the team. You learn a lot when you're making really good training stuff.

If nothing else, make up some brainwashing crap about how great the company "culture" is and make the team listen to that (on their own time of course).

If you really need to go, then look for a lateral move, not a downward one.

Don't look for joy and happiness in your work - I don't think that exists anymore (if it ever did). Find that elsewhere. Good pay and good benefit together with low cost of living is a good combination. Work 8:00 - 5:00 and find a good hobby.

 

[human909]

Don't look for joy and happiness in your work - I don't think that exists anymore (if it ever did). Find that elsewhere. Good pay and good benefit together with low cost of living is a good combination. Work 8:00 - 5:00 and find a good hobby.

That is a little somber. And given the enthusiasm from many on this forum I'd suggest many here do enjoy their work.

I certainly do.

I feel stuck growth and mentorship-wise at my current role.

Why do you need mentorship? You can grow and learn without it.

If you are in a position where you can choose your clients and your work then the world is your oyster.

 

[phamENG]

"Owner" is pretty close to the top of the monkey pile

Pretty sure OP means working for the owner. As structural engineers, the usual stakeholders we encounter are owner, contractor, architect, and various consulting engineers.

Tough choice. I switched from consulting to industry for the pay, but mine was a an hour and 15 minute commute. So when the pandemic sent me home after just a few months on site, I realized how terrible the commute was and decided not to go back when they required a return to office. I started my own consulting operation, though, so I didn't really have to take a pay cut. I am still missing the team atmosphere, though. If I'd lived close by, I might have stuck it out. They had great company culture (almost too great...some considered it a little cultish) and really nice pay, benefits, and bonuses. But I lived in a high cost area (best schools for my kids, more job opportunities for my wife and for me in terms of consulting) and commuted to the middle of nowhere to the plant.

I disagree with MintJulep's advice to not try to find happiness at work. I don't think it should be your singular source of happiness or worth. But you spend more than 1/3 of life doing it while you're at it, so it should contribute to your happiness and satisfaction. The question is, which is the larger contribution - that pay that allows you to do more hobbies and things with your family off the clock, or the satisfaction of working in a consulting firm? Keep in mind that you don't really know that consulting firm - the company culture could be terrible. Might be a sweatshop that expects 60 hours a week out of you.

In short - I have no idea what you should do. Just have to weigh each variable and see what makes the most sense for you and your family.

 

[Eng16080]

Pretty sure OP means working for the owner

That makes sense if accurate. I was rather confused by that.

Don't look for joy and happiness in your work - I don't think that exists anymore (if it ever did). Find that elsewhere. Good pay and good benefit together with low cost of living is a good combination. Work 8:00 - 5:00 and find a good hobby.

Working for myself, I definitely don't feel this way. As an employee, I could certainly relate to the sentiment, although it usually wasn't that bad.

But I don't know how I feel about asking for >$105k when going from industry/owner to A&E commercial/consulting.

If it was me, I would ask for at least your current salary. I see little harm in doing that. There's no guarantee the new job will be any better, and I wouldn't want a worse job combined with worse pay. I generally agree with your friend about not taking a pay cut.

 

[271828]

If you have a family to support, then that pay cut is a lot bigger deal than if you are single.

From what you typed, I would be inclined to not move. You did say there are other factors though, that you didn't type.

 

[RattlinBog]

"Owner" is pretty close to the top of the monkey pile, so yeah, opportunities for promotion are limited.

I can see where my description would be confusing; I made an edit to clear it up. Like phamENG said, I meant owner as in I work for an owner, such as a facility/plant that hires consultants and contractors to complete work for us. I'm an in-house structural within the plant. I complete my own design and construction drawings for smaller projects and PM the larger OpEx and CapEx projects. I provide some mentorship to a younger EIT and work with several plant operations/maintenance staff, but I don't have anyone directly under my supervision.

I actually do enjoy what I do here! I was trying not to get too in the weeds, but there are nuances.
1) The plant I work at itself is going downhill. There is a small chance that it will be temporarily or permanently idled in the future. Then again, it could flourish back to life, but that's hard to predict. Much of that is tied to market conditions and available resources. Occasional layoffs have been happening.
2) My wife and I have talked about moving closer to family (4-5 hours away) so we could have some help with kids. That would require a job change.
3) Not to be negative, but some management/leadership here is coasting on easy street, and it can be frustrating. I'm supposed to have a support system above me that cares, but I (and others feel the same way) end up feeling like I'm alone. That's probably better than being micromanaged, but it's a bit demoralizing.

Why do you need mentorship? You can grow and learn without it.

If you are in a position where you can choose your clients and your work then the world is your oyster.

You're not wrong! I guess I feel like I'm getting behind my peers in consulting--a bit of FOMO perhaps. I know that consulting is high stress and can be long hours, but I sometimes miss having that challenge and working together on a team with like-minded people. I might have my rose-colored glasses on, though... Maybe I feel like I'm too young to be in my current role, as if I haven't been through the fire enough yet while I'm still early in my career.

Keep in mind that you don't really know that consulting firm - the company culture could be terrible. Might be a sweatshop that expects 60 hours a week out of you.

In short - I have no idea what you should do. Just have to weigh each variable and see what makes the most sense for you and your family.

All good points. I have heard a lot of great things about this particular firm--good culture, flexibility, etc.--but I'm making a point to have informal conversations and ask questions to understand if it might be a mutual fit.

Let me ask a more specific question--let's say I was dead set on consulting for various reasons. Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? Should I instead try to negotiate for the same salary or more? Edit: I was typing this as a couple other replies came in.

 

[bookowski]

Let me ask a more specific question--let's say I was dead set on consulting for various reasons. Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? Should I instead try to negotiate for the same salary or more? Edit: I was typing this as a couple other replies came in

Both seem reasonable. Taking a pay cut isn't crazy, presumably you're unhappy for a variety of reasons since you're asking randos on the internet what to do. I'd take that as a sign that you want to move on. Your general happiness and satisfaction can be considered part of your compensation. But you might as well also ask for more money. I would not worry about insulting anyone by asking for 10% or 20% more than they're offering. If they are interested they'll either say ok or come back with a compromise offer. You'll have much better chances if you have a good argument to make to justify the pay, and do not base it on "I was making...". They do not care, nor should they, how much you were making. Maybe you were overpaid, or underpaid. They care if you can bring in more than you take out. So along those lines it seems you should be selling your case that you are not just a mid level engineer, you are a mid level engineer with very different experience, knowledge, and perspective than your peers and make the case for the value in this (prepare some specifics of what this could bring to the table from different angles: ownership concerns, project management concerns, problems you've seen from the other side etc etc). And if the money is still an issue consider that move you mentioned, it sounds like you're in a low cost area. In my area a PE with 7 years would be making ~30% more than that (although the cost of living probably more than offsets that). Having help with the kids is probably worth 20k/year.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

I guess I feel like I'm getting behind my peers in consulting--a bit of FOMO perhaps. I know that consulting is high stress and can be long hours, but I sometimes miss having that challenge and working together on a team with like-minded people.

It would probably be best to solidify your thoughts. I'd say make a document clearly articulating the pros and cons of your current situation. Incorporate your thoughts on the direction of current company, with examples, and what you would expect from a new employer.

Let me ask a more specific question--let's say I was dead set on consulting for various reasons. Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? Should I instead try to negotiate for the same salary or more? Edit: I was typing this as a couple other replies came in.

Regarding the pay cut, I think the amount of supplemental income your wife makes is a major determining factor. As was stated above, a $15k pay cut is a big deal for a family, but hey, maybe your wife is making bank.

 

[271828]

2) My wife and I have talked about moving closer to family (4-5 hours away) so we could have some help with kids. That would require a job change.

If I'm understanding correctly, the consulting job with lower pay would put you close to extended family. As your or her parents age, the situation will be radically worse if you're far away from them. Grandparents literally live longer on average when they have relationships with grandchildren. There is no putting a price tag on those. Certainly not worth quibbling over the range of numbers you've described.

Let me ask a more specific question--let's say I was dead set on consulting for various reasons. Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? Should I instead try to negotiate for the same salary or more? Edit: I was typing this as a couple other replies came in.

Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? As a blanket statement, it's just not that simple.

There are lots of other factors to consider. Granted, some of these would be hard to know early on. Some examples:

• How much control would you have over how you do your job? Standards are OK, but micromanagement isn't.
• Are the leaders effective in general? Do they blame others? Do they openly criticize others? Are they greedy?
• What's the long term picture for compensation? Who cares about $10k now. It might be that you would make 2x as much over the long haul.
• Does the company keep up with modern methods? For example, in one of my first jobs, they were still using AISC ASD 89 in 2002. They didn't start putting computers on desks until after the turn of the century.

I'm not big on negotiating in this scenario. You're the new guy wandering into their world. They know the books. You don't. Say they give you $10k more starting. After that, they could give you smaller raises for years without you knowing it so the compensation makes sense in their brains. The monthly cashflow difference between $85k and $95k is only a few hundred bucks -- something like 10000/12*0.8 = $667. In today's world, numbers that size can disappear in a budget in a heartbeat anyway.

 

[EZBuilding]

Let me ask a more specific question--let's say I was dead set on consulting for various reasons. Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? Should I instead try to negotiate for the same salary or more?

In my opinion, yes I do think it would be dumb to take a pay cut - especially to go into a situation where you are likely to go into a higher stress, longer hours work situation.

I'd wager you should consider starting your own consulting business on the side (hopefully within your companies moonlighting policies). Try to take one a couple of small projects throughout the year and see if that scratches your consulting engineering itch.

 

[RenHen]

I'd definitely ask for more; most companies can afford more than they advertise in their job listings and you'll have much less leverage and flexibility if you're already employed by the company you're trying to negotiate with.

 

[EngDM]

Why do you need mentorship? You can grow and learn without it.

That's what this forum is for

 

[SE2607]

Could use a reality check. I'm a PE with 7 years of experience--4 in consulting and now 3 working for an owner/facility (edit)--all heavy industry. Just completed a civil engineering M.S. while working full time. I feel stuck growth and mentorship-wise at my current role. I enjoy learning and working as a team; that's scarce here. I'm the only structural in a tiny engineering team. There are some other reasons I'm considering a change, but I don't want to make this post too long. However, I'm compensated well. Making low six figures, generous bonuses, cheap insurance, and 6-8% 401k match, 15 min commute, all in a low cost of living area.

The postings for midlevel structural engineers in my area show a salary range of about $75k-$100k. I haven't applied anywhere yet, but I did start an informal conversation with someone I know at one of the firms I'm interested in. Nothing concrete, but he brought up $85k base salary as a discussion point. That would be about a 20% cut for me. Their insurance premiums are double mine and 401k contribution is only at end of year and varies based on profit, too.

Truthfully, I'm not a great negotiator. If I apply at this firm, I'd like to ask for $95k. I'm a bit worried of insulting them and somehow ending the conversation abruptly if I go too high. However, some other folks have told me to never take a pay cut when switching jobs. But I don't know how I feel about asking for >$105k when going from industry/owner to A&E commercial/consulting.

I'd appreciate any advice or past experience! I'm taking things slow for now...not in a rush. There are about 4-6 open midlevel structural positions in my area, and most have been open for months...

Executive Summary: Happiness is more important than money.
I've worked for others for 10 years and now have been on my own for 37 years. While I worked for others, I tried to get into more conventional structural engineering firms, designing buildings, etc., but for an engineer with little experience, the pay kept me from doing it. I eventually went out on my own mostly so I could design stuff. I went from designing bridges (those boring freeway overpasses, not the exciting ones) to residential remodels. I occasionally reflect the path not taken, thinking that, today, I might be doing some really cool 3D modeling on some pretty exotic structures. Of course, I don't know what that path would have actually led to. It's unfortunate that the technical route is limiting financially. In my case, and I suspect for many others, to progress financially, the only option is to go into management.
I believe being happy at what you do at work, what you do and who you do it with, is very important. You spend a LOT of your awake time at work. It's also important to live close to work (15 mins or so). Commute time is the "overhead" of working for a living and it takes time away from your family. If you find a good job, doing what you want to do and good people to work with and you have to move to get closer, then move, even if it means moving from a SFD to a condo. If money is still tight, eliminate the things you do not need. Trade the Tesla for a Camry. Instead of buying Starbuck's by the cup, buy it by the pound. Etcetera.
I hope you find happiness.
Good luck!

 

[phamENG]

Let me ask a more specific question--let's say I was dead set on consulting for various reasons. Would it be dumb to take a pay cut? Should I instead try to negotiate for the same salary or more? Edit: I was typing this as a couple other replies came in.

Not necessarily, no. My first job out of school was for a sign manufacturer. Money was pretty amazing for a newly minted civil engineering grad, especially doing structural work (nobody was hiring structural engineers within 100 miles when I graduated...school in a large metro area where I already owned a house and my wife had/has a career), so I was pretty happy. But not happy with the work. I was pretty bored. There were plenty of things I could have gotten engaged in, but they weren't the things I really wanted to be doing. So when I convinced a firm looking for a senior engineer to give me an interview slot about 6 months later, I took a 16% pay cut to jump to consulting. Don't regret it one bit.

That's not to say you should just roll over and take what they give you. There are new grads getting $85k out there now in some markets. They're admittedly rare, but they exist, and you bring tremendous value to that firm. At 4 years experience I was getting $82k in a market that is a little below average nationally in pay for engineers. That was a pandemic and several years ago. You're certainly worth more than $85k. Now, maybe it's $85k with a generous bonus structure, which I could get behind, but $85k is too low for you, especially if you're going to be bringing any clients.

 

[RattlinBog]

I appreciate all the responses! I know you folks are internet strangers, but it's nice to have different perspectives. I'm more than fine making the decision by only talking to my wife, but I've always been a "gather outside input first" type of guy. Also, I'm trying not to talk too many peers in my area about this because it's a small world, and news can slip out fast. Sorry if I don't directly reply to all of you. I'm obviously not good at being succinct already, so I want to avoid writing a novel. Just know that I've read and appreciate your perspective!

Both seem reasonable. Taking a pay cut isn't crazy, presumably you're unhappy for a variety of reasons since you're asking randos on the internet what to do. I'd take that as a sign that you want to move on. Your general happiness and satisfaction can be considered part of your compensation. But you might as well also ask for more money. I would not worry about insulting anyone by asking for 10% or 20% more than they're offering. ...

I'm not entirely unhappy, aside from some management frustrations that I can usually ignore. If nothing in management changed say for the next 5 years, I wouldn't want to finish my whole career here. I'd say the main reason I'm looking is because we may move closer to family. I forgot to mention this, but the firm I'm talking to has offices in both my current town and the town we would potentially move to 5 hours away. I think that's worth considering as I could work for them in my town for a year or two before we moved.

It would probably be best to solidify your thoughts. I'd say make a document clearly articulating the pros and cons of your current situation. Incorporate your thoughts on the direction of current company, with examples, and what you would expect from a new employer.

Yes, I like that. Too many conflicting thoughts going on. I did start a spreadsheet to compare finances but no pros/cons spreadsheet yet. Haha

Regarding the pay cut, I think the amount of supplemental income your wife makes is a major determining factor. As was stated above, a $15k pay cut is a big deal for a family, but hey, maybe your wife is making bank.

She's at home raising our kids for now until they start school, so income is on me. A $15k-$20k cut would be very noticeable. Don't get me wrong, we'll be well fed and warm, but things like savings, 401k contributions, and potential house mortgage (if we move) would take a hit. A potential new house is probably the biggest factor. We don't need a big fancy house, but we're currently locked into a great interest rate and been able to make additional principle payments. Moving to the town we're talking about would likely triple our mortgage and lock us into 6.5-7% interest.

If I'm understanding correctly, the consulting job with lower pay would put you close to extended family. As your or her parents age, the situation will be radically worse if you're far away from them. Grandparents literally live longer on average when they have relationships with grandchildren. There is no putting a price tag on those. Certainly not worth quibbling over the range of numbers you've described.

Thankfully the grandparents have their other kids and grandkids nearby. My wife and I are the odd ducks out being far away. We have a good community of friends here, but not being around family can be tough with the littles.

I'm not big on negotiating in this scenario. You're the new guy wandering into their world. They know the books. You don't. Say they give you $10k more starting. After that, they could give you smaller raises for years without you knowing it so the compensation makes sense in their brains. The monthly cashflow difference between $85k and $95k is only a few hundred bucks -- something like 10000/12*0.8 = $667. In today's world, numbers that size can disappear in a budget in a heartbeat anyway.

This is all fair and true. It occurred to me that starting higher may mean smaller pay bumps later. Though I think I'd prefer that than starting so low that we have to make big budget cuts. $600-$700 is meaningful on a single income. Groceries are $800/month for us right now (includes diapers lol) for example. Your perspective here is honestly how I usually think, but I also want to consider the fact that there are currently about 6 midlevel structural openings in the area, and none of them have been filled in months. I've been keeping an eye on them. They just keep getting refreshed with new deadlines. I believe I have a leg to stand on.

That's not to say you should just roll over and take what they give you. There are new grads getting $85k out there now in some markets. They're admittedly rare, but they exist, and you bring tremendous value to that firm. At 4 years experience I was getting $82k in a market that is a little below average nationally in pay for engineers. That was a pandemic and several years ago. You're certainly worth more than $85k. Now, maybe it's $85k with a generous bonus structure, which I could get behind, but $85k is too low for you, especially if you're going to be bringing any clients.

I appreciate hearing that! I don't believe new grads are getting quite that much here (midwest, LCOL), but I think you're right that 7 YOE should be more than $85k. I struggle sometimes with self-confidence, so occasionally I think that I'm not as good / smart as some of my peers, especially those that have stuck to consulting for 7+ years. I'm not exactly doing super complicated design in my current role, so that's why I sometimes feel like I'm behind. I do love to learn and can pick things up quickly, so maybe I would be just fine within a year or two back in consulting.

 

[SWComposites]

I'm in a different industry, but for a PE with 7 years experience and an MS, $85k sounds crazy low for 2025. I would play up your experience and ability to independently work in your current role and would ask for at least a small increase over your current salary. But I would try to not discuss salary until you have had an interview and a chance to sell yourself.