PCB Software Suggestions

[Noway2]

For a few years now, I have been using PCAD 2001 to develop my PCBs. Until recently, this tool, which is limited to 6 layers and 400 components, has been sufficient for my needs. The problem is that the boards that I have been desiging have been steadilly increasing in their complexity and the one am currently designing exceeds the component limit. The board that I am working on is an IO board with a fairly large number of inputs and outputs and a wide variety of functionaility which drives up the component usage very quickly and this board exceeds the capabilities of my present tool.

I am looking for suggestions for a PCB development (software) package and I wanted to ask what "y'all" are using to develop your PCBs with these days? I am intereted in a commercial package that can reliably handle relatively complex boards for production purposes rather than a free or demo 'web based' program geared towards hobbyists and small quantity prototyping.

 

[felixc]

PADS is among the good ones. I think it is about the best of the non-workstation type of CAD package. (I refer to Mentor and Cadence, which were the traditional high-end CAD) It can import and export to various other software, it can have its own autorouter, or export to external ones.

If you havent't seen the prices of such packages you're in for a surprise. They deliver more, and they cost more. A lot more.

 

[ScottyUK]

Zuken Redac's CadStar was an excellent tool when I used it. Back then it was Racal Redac, so that probably dates things! I expect that the later versions have built upon what was a pretty good foundation.

http://www.cadstarworld.com/

----------------------------------

I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I use Protel, but it has its own set of fun bugs to play with, as do all packages. There may or may not be better packages out there for my purposes, but Protel was used on a consulting job several years back, it's what I'm used to now, and it's paid for. If someone wants me to use something else, they'll have to shell out the bucks and wait for my learning curve to staighten out.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Noway2]

Thank you for the suggestions. I have begun attempting to contact these companies to see what I would be looking at to go those routes.

I recall once before hearing that a lot of people use, and seem to like, Protel but I am having trouble finding it. Is Protel even available anymore or did it get assimilated by Altium?

 

[e2zn]

Altium "ate" Protel. Here's what the website sez:

http://www.altium.com/Products/AltiumDesigner/Boardleveldesign/WhathappenedtoProtel/

 

[Noway2]

We are the Borg. You biological and technilogical distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

 

[itsmoked]

Remove parts from your design until your package can handle it.

I suppose you should check out Accel. I do a lot of work for Applied Materials and a few years back they standardized on Accel. Their "research showed it to be the best", whatever the hell that means.

Course maybe it's been gobbled up by now by Altium too. Or is the same.

I have used Eagle which seemed pretty good. Seemed like a lot of function for the dollars and wasn't some giant money grubbing EDA house. I think you can try it out for free, see what you think before jumping in.

http://www.cadsoft.de/

http://www.cadsoft.de/Tour/tour00.htm

Ah yes macgyvers2000, fun with LEDs. Looks pretty cool.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[zeitghost]

I'm using CadStar at the moment. It's ok & easy to use once you get into it.

Also used Vutrax, which is very competent, but if I don't use it for a while I have to do the tutorials all over again...

Used Orcad for schematic capture for years, but never used the pcb layout.

 

[itsmoked]

I thought ORCAD was another swallowee.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[itsmoked]

I should start a company and cyber-squat on "SwallowTech"!

Ah cripes I'm too late!

http://www.swallowtech.com/

Life storey...


Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[Comcokid]

I've used a lot of them since the first version of Smartwork appeared for PCs about 1985. Sure was a lot better than laying strips of Bishop Graphics red and blue tape on mylar!

Recently I've used PADS and Altium/Protel. I see them as roughly equivalent in capability. PADS originated at the high-end workstation CAD market and has migrated down to the level of PCs over the years. Protel originated on PCs and has worked it's way up to the high end feature market over the years.

Protel Trivia questions; anyone know how "Tasmania" fits into the picture? Remember bus-slot key cards?, or just how "Tango" was related and what happened to them?

I know if you do a monster search using Altium (Protel) and PADS, you will find that more employers are looking for PADS experience.

Despite this, I perfer Protel just for the reason I've used it far longer and am more efficient with it. I am not a PC designer by skill, just an engineer who has to do a lot of his own PC board design. Since I do a lot of Analog and RF, or have a lot of placement constraints, I never use autorouters.

I once worked at a company where I was developing a lot of complex boards. These were contracted outside to a outfit that dedicated PCB designers who used Mentor. They would pass back completed designs in just a few days! But such tools are not for the engineer who has to do everything himself.

As for Altium/Protel - To misquote Shakespear: A rose by any other name is still a rose cuz each new bud still has bugs.

 

[zeitghost]

Orcad is now owned by Cadence. <gulp> <belch>... )

I've noticed that some of the firms I've worked for have used Orcad for schematic capture and PADS for pcb layout.

No idea why, but that's the way it's been.

Quite like CadStar, which is just as well since I use it frequently.

Once I'd figured out how to get the little hole in the middle of the pad (by changing the pad definition from "circle" to "apperture"), it all went well.

Never done any SM stuff with it though. The available technology for producing the pcb (i.e. me, laser printer, uv box and etch tank) tend to argue against fine pitch devices and narrow tracks, though I am getting better slowly.

 

[itsmoked]

You left out "mysterious unmarked drums-of-waste in back".

lolo

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[zeitghost]

Yes. There are a number of plastic containers full of substances of unknown origin... )

I shall need to find someone to take them away... safely and legally. )

 

[felixc]

Schematics of demo boards are almost always coming as an OrCAD file. Unfortunately the OrCAD PCB package is not at par with the complexity of the devices (500-pin BGAs for example) found on the OrCAD schematics. Perhaps that now it does since the assimilation by Cadence. Fortunately OrCAD Capture exports its data quite nicely.

The big drawback of the OrCAD/PADS combo is that you can't perform on-the-fly pin and gate swaps. When the board gets into high-density, this swapping ability allows you to optimize the routing without going back and forth between layout and capture.

How nicely do the other low-cost packages perform on this aspect?

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I know that Altium/Protel supports pin swapping, but it's not a feature I've used extensively.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[zappedagain]

I've been using PCAD for the last four years and am very happy with it. I'm at a new company now and picking a CAD system. I'm considering PADS to be compatible with a sister division. They both appear to be very good packages.

OrCAD's layout tool is now Allegro. Allegro is a very nice tool if you use it everyday, but I've found it has a steep learning curve every time I move away from it for a while (and that happens a lot). Allegro only works in action-object mode, not object-action, so moving to it from other layout packages is tedious.

 

[Noway2]

Just to post a note of followup as it gets interesting from this point.

It was decided to upgrade the PCAD to the latest edition as this is the same tool we have been using and also appeares to be the most cost effective solution. However, upon hearing about this, the CAD manager at another one of our companies called me this morning to strongly encourage me to NOT buy the PCAD. Instead he recommends Cadence.

The first of the two reasons he gave me for this suggestion were that he feels PCAD currently has a very small percentage of the market and combined with the fact that there has been little (visible) development in their tools he questions whether it will remain available. The second reason is that his experience has shown that once you have climbed the learning curve with Cadence, PCB development will talk almost half as long.

The other thing I wanted to mention about this issue, is that on the Suggestion of Altium, I downloaded the PCAD2004 30 day trial. Obtaining the download has proven to be an extreme excersize in frustration. First, the FPT system they contract through would not recognize the user name and password they gave me. I tried again the next day and changed a checkbox on the login screen that I had no idea what it was for an it appeared to work. At this point I was able to download the 900+MB program. Lastly, upon trying to unzip the program, I discovered that I needed a password. After two phone calls and a couple of emails with Altium, I was told the password which consists of 30 characters of nonsense numbers and letters. Unbelievable.

It is very obvious that the company is paranoid about protecting their licensing and puts a tremendous amount of effort in to THEIR security. If they would only spend 1/8th of that effort on the tools, they would have one hell of a program.

 

[TurboXS]

We have used Altium/Protel from 98, 99SE, DXP and now Designer 6. It is widely used in Australia. I have also played with Cadence.

Designer 6 has a lot of features but like most Altium/Protel releases there are bugs and migrating from say 98 or 99SE can be frustrating to say the least. In fact using Altium/Protel can be very "character building"!

regards
Pete