PDMWorks Question

[RawheadRex]

Hi All,

I have what appears (to me at least) to be a paradoxical behavior that I'm encountering in PDMWorks when I am evaluating "local view" documents and "vault" documents.

To give a quick background on what precipitated this post. A few weeks back my boss asked me to clean up a pretty tangled mess of SW files that have been giving people headaches for some time now. Whenever this job got checked out of the vault there were ALWAYS loads of rebuild errors which managed to keep propogating from each user that touched these files. Suffice to say this left me more than a bit of work to do and the root causes are poor practices and knowledge about how to properly implement and utilize SW and PDMW.

Anyhow I managed to clean things up very nicely but as I said I found what appears to a paradox in PDMW. Here's what I'm seeing:

Assume there exists a file which I'll refer to as "A" that I'm evaluating. This file appears with an icon that depicts a white upward arrow in a green circle in my local folder view on the PDMWorks tab in SW. According to the PDMWorks documentation this icon indicates that file "A" is "newer" (to use PDMWorks jargon) than the version that currently resides in the vault. Also assume that PDMWorks is interpreting this "newer than" condition correctly.

For purposes of testing to ensure that my clean SW file versions resolve without error next time someone needs to work on them, I have created an empty folder called "Checkout Test." I have also left intact all of the original SW files that were copied into the vault upon check-in (theoretically these should be identical in substance to the vault versions).

My test involves opening "as built" and "latest versions" of my assembly (which references the aforementioned file "A" within its structure). Before selecting the folder in which to open the assembly I do a comparison. Here's where the interesting thing happens. File "A" now appears with an icon that depicts a white downward arrow in a red circle in the list of references shown in the open document dialog for PDMWorks. To quote the PDMW documentation this (supposedly) means that "the local view document is older than the document in the vault." However as I mentioned previously, PDMW previously indicated the local view document is newer than the vault document.

Having said all of that, I have refreshed the local and vault views several times with the same end result.

I would like to gain an understanding of the above behavior that I'm seeing though. Shouldn't "newer than vault version" ALWAYS be "newer than vault version" if I don't ever do anything to change the file conditions? To me it is kind of bizarre but PDM usually is and I ought to know better.

The only thing that I can think of that seems plausible (and I'm probably offbase here) is that the reference list icons are referring to the vault and not the local view documents (i.e. the vault file is older than the local file). However my interpretation of the PDMW documentation tells me clearly that isn't the case because it mentions "local view document" explicitly. That is unless of course the definition of "local view document" is relative to who's looking at it. Consider that PDMW manages the vault, so theoretically one might be able to say that "local view document" from the application's perspective does in fact mean the "vault document" to the user. Obviously I'm confused about something here.

I should point out that my models do not load with rebuild errors when opened from within my "Checkout Test" folder which is the desired end result.

Any thoughts or comments would be most appreciated.

Regards,
Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

 

[ctopher]

So you know you are not alone...I am having a similar problem that I am currently working on. If I find anything I will let you know. PDMW is a good tool, but can be a pain sometimes.

 

[badboggs]

I was following you up until the point where you began your test. What was the test exactly? Were you trying to stop errors or just compare icons?

One senario in which the vault view would show up as being newer than the local view is this. If you open a file and make changes to it. Then check it into the vault without saving it. The next time you went to open the file from the vault it would show up with a red icon. Always remember to save first before you check in a document. This way they will be the same verion.

One other thing to watch out for. If you open a document from the vault and save it without making any changes and then close the file. The next time you go to open the file from the vault it will show up with a green circle and white arrow. This goes for all parts of an assembly underwhich you saved the assy.

I have one question for you. Are you saying that in your regular local folder (the one where you checked in the documents from) that you are having errors? And that you are not having errors in the new "test" folder? You never really explained that part of the test. It shouldn't matter which folders you are in if you open an assy and make sure to overwrite all the files. You will have problems though if you only open the assy without selecting all the parts. Then you are only using the ones locally.

If you could elaborate on your problem a little I think I could help you sort out your issue.

Boggs

 

[RawheadRex]

"What was the test exactly? Were you trying to stop errors or just compare icons?"

The test was to make sure my latest (checked in) SW design work gets copied from the vault to some folder in a manner whereby when I open the files in SW the results are as expected. In and of itself the "test" is irrelevant to my specific query. What is relevant however is that the file version in the original folder (where the "checked in" files originated from) is flagged as "newer than" the vault version in local view but when I go to "open" the checked in version, the PDMW "open" dialog indicates the file is "older than" the vault version. However this is BEFORE I switch to the actual folder that I'm using to "open" the copies of the "checked in" files. To answer your question in short, I noticed a discrepancy in the icons the is counter-intuitive to me so what I'm investigating is the icon display behavior.

"One senario in which the vault view would show up as being newer than the local view is this. If you open a file and make changes to it. Then check it into the vault without saving it. The next time you went to open the file from the vault it would show up with a red icon. Always remember to save first before you check in a document. This way they will be the same verion."

I understand and this is good common sense stuff you bring up. The document(s) in question though are files that didn't need to be checked in because no modifications of substance were made (I understand that a "dirty flag" is painted in a good number of instances where no change to physical geometry happens as is the case with the part in question). I don't believe that is the case here.

"One other thing to watch out for. If you open a document from the vault and save it without making any changes and then close the file. The next time you go to open the file from the vault it will show up with a green circle and white arrow. This goes for all parts of an assembly underwhich you saved the assy."

Again this I understand and is exactly what I'm referring to. I have a file that I opened that got saved over the course of my work on this particular assembly. But as no physical changes occurred there wasn't any need to check the file in. When I went to perform the test PDMW lists the file in the "references" portion of the dialog box and displays the red circle with the white down arrow. As you've pointed out (along with the PDMW documentation) this shouldn't be the case because I KNOW that the local view file is (technically speaking) "newer" than the vault version. That's my paradox.

"I have one question for you. Are you saying that in your regular local folder (the one where you checked in the documents from) that you are having errors? And that you are not having errors in the new "test" folder? You never really explained that part of the test. It shouldn't matter which folders you are in if you open an assy and make sure to overwrite all the files. You will have problems though if you only open the assy without selecting all the parts. Then you are only using the ones locally."

To reiterate, the test is only relevant to my question insofar as it exposed the scenario which prompted my post. But for what it is worth, the test folder is all that matters because the destination for any work pulled from the PDMW vault will always be an empty folder (according to our groups' standard practices). My question relates only to document comparison in PDMW. The "test" folder is just an empty repository for checking the integrity of the recently "checked in" files. Hopefully that clears things up nice and dirty in the way of an explanation for my somewhat abstract and boneheaded question.

Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

 

[NathanN]

"What is relevant however is that the file version in the original folder (where the "checked in" files originated from) is flagged as "newer than" the vault version in local view but when I go to "open" the checked in version, the PDMW "open" dialog indicates the file is "older than" the vault version."

One very important thing first. You should not have a folder that contains the original assembly. When you check a part/assembly/drawing into the vault, you should delete ALL the local copies. The whole point behind PDM is that it centralizes design data. Having more than one copy of an assembly is a recipe for trouble. The fact that the origianl version is newer than the vault version is of little importance - the original should've been deleted anyway.

It does seem strange that PDMWorks thinks the freshly checked out assembly is older than the vault version. Are all the files indicating that they are older?
Also, PDMWorks has two ways of comparing local files and vault files. You can compare the saved file or the file in the memory. Which one were you using?

Nathan

 

[RawheadRex]

"One very important thing first. You should not have a folder that contains the original assembly....."

That's fine and makes much sense if one can trust PDMWorks to deliver the SW data in a reliable and consistent fashion (something that's eluded the company that I started working for recently). I don't think you read my entire post (which is admittedly longish) but I was running a test scenario to ensure that I would get predictable results from PDMWorks when I opened my SW files after checking them into the vault. The comparison tells me whether or not I'm getting out of the vault EXACTLY what I put into it. The original files only remain in existence (temporarily) to ensure to my own satisfaction that the vault contains reliable data.

When I encounter behavior in the software that is counter-intuitive it is of great importance that I understand why the software would behave in such a fashion. This is partially because I need to develop confidence in the application to develop a set of "standard practices" for my group but also it is because I'm being commissioned to author a "wrapper" application that enforces and automates consistent implementation of the "business rules" we have to follow in the course of our daily job activities. PDMWorks is part of these "rules."

I have only compared the files visually via the icons displayed next to the files in question using the "local view" pane and then browsing the vault to the file that I want to check and RMB "open." Then in the "references" portion of the dialog box I scroll through the list to check for disparity. I suppose that in this case I would be comparing the saved files.

To answer the first question, no only a select few are indicating that they are out of synch with the vault versions. (Please read/re-read the previous posts far additional info on these files).

Thanks,
Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

 

[automationbabe]

RawheadRex -

Took me a few readings but I think I see what you're talking about.

"What is relevant however is that the file version in the original folder (where the "checked in" files originated from) is flagged as "newer than" the vault version in local view but when I go to "open" the checked in version, the PDMW "open" dialog indicates the file is "older than" the vault version."

What you are describing should be happening if I understood you. If the Local view has a green arrow indicating that its newer than the Vault version. So if you go to "open" or "check out" the vault version to the folder that that has the file with the green arrow, you will see a red arrow in the PDMW box. This is telling you that the vault version is older than your local copy. As the opposite is true: If your local copy has a red arrow, it is older than the vault, so opening that file from the vault will appear with a green arrow indicating that it is newer than the local version.

You are already aware of the many little things that will cause your local version to appear newer than the vault version, so I won't go into that. But if you are confident that the file checked into the vault, you can always update your local version from the vault. If the local version appears newer, you will get a message that says something along the lines of "Local version appears NEWER than the vault. Are you sure you want to update local document with older version?" Typically you want to overwrite the local version unless you know its a file you are updating.

You mentioned "As-built" and "latest version" as well. If you have local copies and select to overwrite them with "As-built" version, the vault can display red arrows and still be valid. For example: You have a file at revision 10. You want to get an "As-built" assembly that uses this file at revision 7. The vault version is now older than your local version. Latest version are typically all new files unless you have newer or identical copies locally.

Nathan has a good point about deleting local copies once checked in. Especially if the same file is located in many different folders.

OK. Hopefully that helped. Easier to explain verbally with examples than this way. Good luck!

 

[RawheadRex]

"Also, PDMWorks has two ways of comparing local files and vault files. You can compare the saved file or the file in the memory. Which one were you using?"

Nathan,

Let me clarify the above. I just figured out what you were referring to exactly so I checked my settings and ran my comparisons again. It came up with the same results for both options. Sorry for the dumb answer in the previous post.

Thanks,
Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

 

[RawheadRex]

AutomationBabe,

Thanks, you've given validation to what I intuitively felt had to be the answer. The red arrow in the PDMW open/checkout dialog refers to the vault version being "older" than the local version.

When one reads the help documentation for the "Document Status Icons" that concept isn't abundantly clear (at least to me anyhow) because they use the term "local view document" in each case (red & green arrows). One kind of has to read between the lines to understand that "local view document" doesn't apply (or means something different) when dealing with the open/checkout dialog window in PDMW.

Am I offbase or does anyone know if the help documentation explains this quirky behavior or does one need to have lived through it to understand it?

Thanks,
Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.

 

[automationbabe]

I'm not sure what quirky behavior you are refering to, but I will agree that the Help Documentation is a little confusing. So read carefully, especially if you will have to train others. Any discrepancies that occur in PDMW is generally user generated. The vault is reliable in our use.

Read the other threads about PDMWorks for other helpful information.

Good luck!

 

[RawheadRex]

AutomationBabe,

You wrote:

"What you are describing should be happening if I understood you. If the Local view has a green arrow indicating that its newer than the Vault version. So if you go to "open" or "check out" the vault version to the folder that that has the file with the green arrow, you will see a red arrow in the PDMW box. This is telling you that the vault version is older than your local copy. As the opposite is true: If your local copy has a red arrow, it is older than the vault, so opening that file from the vault will appear with a green arrow indicating that it is newer than the local version."

The "quirk" (at least to me) is that the wording in the PDMW help documentation regarding interpretation of the "Document Status Icons" reads in such a way that indicates that the comparison tells a user whether the "LOCAL VIEW DOCUMENT" is newer, older, or the same as the "vaulted" version NOT VICE VERSA. No differentiation is specifically made between the contexts in which the user will potentially encounter the icons.

Intuitively it made sense to me that it would be interpreted in the way that you explained it but where the help file wording doesn't seem to support this interpretation I viewed it as something of a paradox. I suspected that it was a failure of the documentation but needed some validation.

Thanks Again,
Chris Gervais
Sr. Mechanical Designer
Lytron Corp.