PE and state of employment 6

[Lion06]

Here is a question that I'd be very interested to get answers from persons in a position of hiring on.

In my current firm (approximately 40-50) people spread across 3 groups (about 8 in the pure structural engineering group) the PE is more for legitimacy with clients and respectability of the firm. In my 4+ years here no one other than a principal (and occasionally the Director of Engineering) has ever stamped drawings. That may be one or the reasons there isn't a big raise given for passing the PE - can't say for sure.

Does this hold true for other offices? This goes directly to my next question, which is.......

If someone is registered in state A (say Pennsylvania) and gets hired in state B (let's say Delaware), would you expect them to immediately get licensed in state B if you don't expect them to stamp drawings?

The reason for the question is that the whole engineering vs engineering technology degree thing is rearing its ugly head again. I'm taking the SE I in October after meeting the requirements in my state (which makes no distinction between engineering and engineering technology degrees for licensure). Once I pass it I'm going to be looking pretty hard for a new job that is closer to home, provides better hours, and provides better pay. I live 5 minutes from state B which has a longer waiting period to take the PE (for an engineering technology degree) than my state and I'm concerned that my likely inability to get reciprocity right away will limit my job opportunities and earning potential.

Any thoughts?

 

[trey25624]

I think most places that would be hiring, would understand it would take some time to get reciprocity. Which shouldn't be long. I think for most states the process is pretty quick and is handled by the NCEES? I have seem most companies say something like "must have PE or ability to obtain within 6 months". In other words if you have the PE that helps regardless of what state you are in, they should be willing to understand you just need to get registered. you passed the test. However, in this job market you never know. If you know you are going to be looking in a particluar state you might as well get the PE in that state. Also states like California (and I think Arizona?) require you to take a survyeing and seismic portion of the test, so its not just straight reciprocity with California I believe.

The PE can mean completely different things to different companies. I worked for one company that gave you an office and a promotion as soon as you passed the PE. While another gave you a small bonus for passing. I think when looking for engineering jobs it certainly helps you through the filtering process when they are selecting canidates.

I would just do whatever is easiest to pass the test then worry about reciprocity (that is unless of course you are talking about California).

 

[JohnRBaker]

I realize that my situation is atypical but since you asked...

It will be 40 years this next June since I got my engineering degree (BSME) and 5 years later that I got my P.E. license. I worked for another 4 years as a machine designer for the American operation of a large multinational (headquartered in the UK) manufacturer of food and chemical processing equipment. During those 4 years I never needed to sign or stamp any drawings or documents since we had 2 other more senior P.E. in our office and it was only an issue in some special situations anyways, but the company needed to have at least one P.E. on staff so they paid our semi-annual fees and such, and besides, if I hadn't left when I did, I would have eventually been the 'senior P.E. in the office'.

However, I did leave in 1980 and moved from Michigan to California and took a job which was technically not what you would call true engineering job. I instead joined the company which had sold us our first CAD system 3 years earlier as I saw this as an opportunity to get in the ground floor of a new and expanding industry. When I joined the company it was into their sales department where my experience using the software, as well as my engineering background, was ideally suited to help with pre-sales activities such as demos and benchmarks as well as an occasional stint teaching a class or doing some post-sales servicing of our customers. During this time the P.E. on my business card helped give me credibility since this was a new industry and potential customers were looking for people who knew what they were talking about and the P.E. helped to ally their concerns. In 1987 I transferred to the develoment organization, first in product management and later as a special consultant to the head of development since while I wasn't a software developer, I did understand how this stuff was being used by customers and so again when I had to deal directly with both existing customers and the occasional potential opportunities which I would be asked to consult on, the P.E. was something which just gave me that extra respectability and integrity.

Now, even though I had moved to California I kept my Michigan registration and continued to pay my semiannual fee to the State of Michigan (which has always been covered by my employer despite the fact that there was no legal or professional need for licensed engineers to be on the staff of a software company). I continue to include the P.E. designation on my business card, my online signatures and I continue to display my license certificate in my office as proscribed by the State of Michigan (even though my office is in SoCal). Since there is no expectation that I will ever need to actually perform the duties of a licensed engineer in my current position, I've kept the license up-to-date and fully paid so that I can legitimately use it to the extent that I do, which I acknowledge is more for 'show' than for 'go', but since I've never misrepresented who I am and what role I play in my company, I feel that I have not violated any tenants of my profession or the agreement I made when I applied for and accepted my initial license.

I said my story was atypical, but it is one where my license has served me well, if perhaps in a secondary or oblique manner, but still one where a legitimate use was made of it. Now has it helped me in terms of compensation and promotion... I'd have to say definitely, even if in an unconventional way considering the direction my career took.

BTW, if anyone is wondering whether I've ever had second thoughts about leaving the 'real world' of engineering and moving to what some might call the 'dark side', well next week I celebrate my 30th anniversary with my current company (despite that fact that in those 30 years I've had 26 different business cards, many due to changes in ownership of the company) and look back on a great career (and hope to continue working for at least a few more years yet). While I sometimes miss the real world, I also know that those years I spent there allowed me to have the job I have now and with the chance to see the world (been to 30+ countries on company business) as well as doing some which I really enjoy.

Sorry for the long post but you asked for other people's stories, and that was mine ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[jpankask]

One thing you should consider, and discuss with the state you are looking to be registered in...Many states require the experience to be gained before taking the PE exam. If, for instance, you live in a state that only requires 2 years experience and you then take the exam but later want reciprocity in a state that requires 4 years experience, you might be forced to re-take the exam after you have the 4 years experience. You need to check with the state board of the state you are considering reciprocity for a definitive answer.

 

[OHIOMatt]

It would not make a difference to me unless you were going to go into a management postion where you would be expected to mentor other EIT's, as this could effect their ability to attain licensure.

The firm that you work for is consistant with my experience. The company that I worked for wanted to control who signed and sealed work. Only department heads/managers were permitted to seal. This was an attempt to maintain consistancy and force engineering managers to take more active roles in aspects of design.

There was not monetary incentive to get licensed, but it was know without it, there was a ceiling on your career.

I have gone through the process of getting licensure by comity in multiple states. Typically, you will have to wait to attain the minimum experience for a technology degree which is typically 8 years (I think).

As far as NCEES goes, I think that in order to attain a record, you would need the 8 years as well. NCEES has created the model licensing laws that most states use, so it would make sense that they would conform to them.

 

[HgTX]

Yes, there are a lot of positions where a PE may be required but a stamp is never used. I've seen this with project managers for inspection firms--they want the PM to have a PE and 10 years' engineering experience, because that's what the clients want, but they never seal anything for the clients and all they really do is personnel management for the inspectors. Also as far as I know at most state DOTs the engineers who review submittals from suppliers, approve design changes, approve proposals to resolve nonconformances, etc., they don't seal anything either, though they might put their signature on a letter. (Around here even that doesn't always happen; a lot of the time it's all handled by email.)

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Lion06]

Ok, so this is making me feel a little better. Maybe it won't be such a detriment in the end.

Thanks, all!

 

[OHIOMatt]

Just be honest in the interview. State that you will do what it takes to get registered in your new home state.

When selecting a candidate, a good work history was just as important as credentials.

 

[OliverJDragon]

Hey, I was coming here to ask a similar question! I guess I'll tag along.

I'm one of those non-stamping PEs. All the projects I make decisions on are located in my home state.

I'm about to take a different job in a different state, where the projects are for various states. The decisions are similar, except that the company's customers (counterparts to my current job) have final approval of whatever it is I propose, which makes it even further removed from engineering responsibility than my current job. And a PE is not required for the job, though it's agreed it would enhance my credibility with the customers.

Nonetheless, I've decided it would be prudent to get licensed in what will be my new home state, and the new employer has said they'll cover E&O insurance. (I think I'm the only PE at the company.)

But what about the other states? Does this affect what can go on my business card? If no license is required for the job, but I do hold one, do I need to get one for all the other states too? "Call the board" isn't so simple when there are several boards to call, and I'm not sure how many licenses my employer feels like paying for.

I guess I'm not too far from JohnRBaker's situation?

OJD

 

[abusementpark]

In my 4+ years here no one other than a principal (and occasionally the Director of Engineering) has ever stamped drawings.

I noticed this is common in a lot engineering and architectural firms and often wondered why this is, because rarely are the owners/principals the design professional who is actually overseeing and managing the project. From a legal standpoint, is it easier for the owners to stamp all drawings in the event of an incident?

I'm starting to hold this theory that it is done to prevent their underlings from building up their resume's and potentially leaving for a better oppurtunity. It seems to me like it is a lot more impressive to list a large number of projects for which you were the engineer of record, instead of only being able to claim a management role. Just a thought

 

[Lion06]

Good point, abusement.

 

[KENAT]

Or, maybe it's management actually accepting responsibility for something.

Then again, that's crazy talk.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[FSS]

You can't stamp drawings unless you did the work! If management stamps the drawings in the manner implied by some of the posts, then they are violating the engineering responsibility rules.

I have been to the engineering board meetings and have seen many people denied license consideration because of the technology degree. It just amazes me how many engineering technolgy programs are out there when you consider how useless the degree is when trying to get a PE license (at least in FL where I practice).

 

[rowingengineer]

I don't know about anyone elses insurance, but mine requires that only the directors of our firm sign off on projects.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[Lion06]

I agree that it's not the best when trying to get licensed, but that's a whole other discussion, in my opinion. Licensure issues aside, I believe my ET degree did a lot more to prepare me to be a structural engineer than a typical undergrad CE degree. I had 2 analysis courses (including matrix methods), 2 steel design courses, 2 concrete design courses, 1 foundations, and a pretty intensive senior design project. This is all in addition to the standards of statics, dynamics, strength of materials, soils, etc. I didn't have to take water resource classes, traffic engineering, or the other CE disciplines which freed up classes for more structural work. That, in my opinion, better prepared me to work as a structural engineer than most undergrad CE degrees where you get 3-4 structures classes total.

I was married with kids and working when I went back to school, so I didn't have the luxury of picking up and moving across the state to get an "engineering" degree. I took what was available to me in my area. I'm pleased with my education, I'm just not pleased with the way my education is recognized by some states.

 

[STpipe]

SEIT,

The number of structures classes that an undergrad CE takes would be highly dependent on which institution they went to. Where I did my undergrad, everyone had at least 4 structures classes, and those that wanted to truly specialize and become structural engineers could take the additional courses which involved things like matrix methods, finite element methods, wood design, foundations and advanced courses in concrete and steel design.

At least where I'm from, there was little variation between universities in their CE programs, and where you did see the differences would be in the advanced classes that are available in the fourth year of the program.

 

[JohnRBaker]

That was the same with the ME curriculum at my school, the first 3 years was pretty consistent and it was only in your 4th year that you decided how you were going to specialize. Now the degrees which were awarded were identical with no mention of the 'track' that you followed that last year, be it Automotive, Environmental (in those days, late 60's/early 70's, this was heating/ventilating/air conditioning), Industrial (factory design), Analytical (testing and validation, but in reality was usually for people moving into the Engineering Mechanics graduate program), Manufacturing, and finally Design (as in machine design, which was my area of specialization). Generally there were about 4 classes that ended up being unique to your particular track. In our Design track that included classes in Vibrations, Mechanical Systems (bearings, gears, springs, fasteners, etc.), Advanced Engineering Materials (plastics, etal) and Senior Design Project (where you worked for an entire term, either solo or in a two person team, designing a complete product). But up until that last year, you could have gone in any direction and it wouldn't have made a difference.

In fact, our freshmen year was so generic that despite the fact that you had to declare your intended degree program upon being accepted at the university (but NOT your specialization), that if you wanted to change to a different engineering degree program between your 1st and 2nd year, you could do so without really losing any ground (I switched from EE to ME and all it basically meant was that I ended-up taking my economics classes as a freshman rather than as a sophomore).

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Lion06]

I agree that the courses offered are institution dependent, but I would also add that I work with people who went to a very wide variety of schools (From Virginia Tech, to Cornell, Penn State, Villanova, and several others) and have not come across anyone yet who has had more than 5 undergrad structures classes.

I understand that's a relatively small sample, but I can't imagine it's THAT skewed.

Part of the reason is that ABET requires proficiency in 4 disciplines for a CE degree, which means your exposure to any single one of them is fairly limited. This also depends on the program requirements - I know some colleges require a greater number of credits for an undergrad degree, but, generally speaking, that is not the case.

 

[Ron]

SEIT...as you know, I'm one of your fans. I have read hundreds of your posts over the past couple of years and have a great deal of respect for your approach to the technical answers you have given. Actually, I would not have guessed that you had a technology degree. I'm a bit surprised, given the depth that you have answered some of the questions.

Yes, there is a distinction between a technology degree and an engineering degree and there should be. ABET has it right and so do the state boards of engineering licensing.

Many states do not recognize technology degrees for engineering licensing. One reason for this is that the average technology graduate does not have the capability to pass the two exams for licensure. You are an exception. I know several others who are similar to you; however, that is not the norm.

Corporate policies vary from firm to firm. For 18 years I worked for an internationally known and rated engineering firm. In that firm, you had to be designated by a review board to serve as the "engineer in responsible charge". The review was rigorous and was done to protect the interests of the company as well as provide a career path to the technical group. In that firm, EVERY report had to be reviewed by one of those "knighted" individuals. I was one for many years until I left the firm. My signature and seal went on many documents, but only those for which I had control over the final result and presentation. I was ultimately an officer in the company (VP), but that had no bearing on my responsibility as an engineer...it seemed to be more a conciliatory promotion for my contribution to the company. In short, I was responsible for my engineering decisions long before I was an officer of the company.

To further answer your question about licensure, if you are hired in a state where you are not licensed, I would expect you to get licensed as quickly as possible, without regard to you status in the company.

As I've said before, you will likely have no problem with the SE1 exam. I expect that when you pass it, you will seek employment elsewhere, which you should. Once you have the first ABET/NCEES licensure, the others will be easier.

Good luck!

 

[Lion06]

Thanks, Ron. I agree that ABET has it right with making the distinction, because they do have different criteria for the degrees. My "technology" degree was pretty different than most, from what I've gathered. I had calc I, II, and III, calc-based physics, and all of my design and analysis courses were "real engineering" classes (they were not designated engineering technology classes). What my program was missing to be an "engineering" degree was classes in other CE disciplines. The branch college I went to only had Structures professors at the time (and a couple CM professors), but none for water resources, traffic, or the other disciplines. That same branch now has an ABET CE program (it started last year). The only other thing my program was missing was the requirement for differential equations (which I took anyway).

Also, in my graduate studies (so far) at a top ten undergrad school, I've been breezing through. I had an advanced concrete class as my first grad class, and there were only two topics that I hadn't learned in my undergrad coursework (and one more topic that we went more in-depth with).

I understand that state boards need to make the distinction with broad brushes. The interesting thing is that now that NCSEA is pushing for more
structural-specific coursework, structural engineering might require less classes in other disciplines.

Thanks for the input on the licensure issue. I really didn't intend this to turn into a debate on the acceptability of an ET degree.