PE EXAM EXPERIENCE - FORM 4A 3

[arena7724]

I have submitted my experience to the State twice already with a response both times that I am not detailed enough in my experience descriptions. To avoid submitting for a fourth time I have decided to post my experience that I will be submitting again. Please, any constructive criticism would be helpful as the State was not willing to provide any (I have called and e-mailed them and got nothing but vague responses....a little hypocritical if you ask me). Anyways, attached is my experience, I tried referencing the code but I did not reference paragraphs or sections because I thought that would be tedious and nothing but fluff that would seem to be filling the pages. The examiner probably would have no clue anyways. I am sure he or she does not have the ASHRAE Handbooks on hand.

Any help would be appreciated. Unfortunately I do not know any P.E.'s that have recently gone through this process.

Thanks!

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I didn't read in any detail, but I failed to see where you performed work with (or had your work checked by) a PE. You have the minimum of 4 years experience listed, but much of the beginning work could very well be considered as lacking (I don't know, someone else will need to step in here and verify/deny).

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[structSU10]

I did not have time to read through it all myself, but when I submitted this form a few months ago, I broke out my experience based on projects with timeframes ranging from 1 month to 2 years. I explained what I did design wise, and what contract management I may have been involved in. I did not explain what codes I used to perform the work very much at all, and didn't explain how I did the work. I don't know what they are looking for exactly, but they accepted what I did, along with another guy I work with who did the same thing, on the first try. I had about 10-12 projects broken down, and I had 3 of our firm partners do the overview section since the work was split up amongst them.

 

[PittEng88]

I broke mine down into projects as well and listed them in chronological order (I also included my employer, my state required this). I listed the name of the project, where it was located, gave a brief overview of what the project entailed, and listed all of what I did design wise for the project. I also included who my supervisor (P.E.) was for each project, as well as a tabulation/summation of the time spent on each project (should equal to at least 4 years ).

As for the whole referencing codes, I am pretty sure this is not what they want to see. They are more interested in seeing a clear and concise breakdown of your progressive work experience under the supervision of a licensed professional engineer.

 

[arena7724]

Macgyvers - See I thought of including the statement that my design work was done under the supervision of a P.E. but on the last page of the Form 4A my sponsor is signing off on the work I am claiming so I felt it would have been redundant.

PittEng88 and structSU10, I will consider breaking down my experience based on projects instead of periods of time. It is just that I did most of the same things on multiple projects over 4 years it would almost seem repetitive.

 

[fel3]

Arena…

I agree with the comments you received. The key is specificity.

You may also want to combine listing individual projects with grouping repetitive work together. For example, when I submitted my information long, long ago, I wrote something like this (this is the shortened version):
"(1) Project engineer responsible for designing a 600-ft long, double-barreled 96-inch-diameter inverted siphon with reinforced concrete inlet and outlet structures on the ####### Canal for ###### Irrigation District, CA. The inverted siphon was constructed with elliptically reinforced ASTM C-76 culvert pipe. The inlet structure includes stop-log guides for blocking off either siphon barrel.
"(2) Project engineer responsible for designing a 3.0-million-gallon ground-level welded steel water tank with 18-inch CML/C steel inlet/outlet pipeline for ######## Municipal Water District, CA. Currently serving as Resident Engineer during construction.
"(3) Project engineer responsible for designing eight reinforced concrete structures for expanding the City of #####, CA, Wastewater Treatment Plant, including a 200,000-gallon circular clarifier, headworks with two Archimedes screw pumps, oxidation ditch, etc. Assisted with design of site grading and plant piping.
"(4) Project engineer responsible for preparing schematic designs for water and reclaimed water system facilities required to serve new developments proposed in ######## Municipal Water District, CA. To date, I have completed 12 schematic designs for proposed developments ranging in size from 6 residential units on 3 acres to 1200 residential units plus commercial on 550 acres. I am currently working on 3 more similar studies. These studies require computer modeling of the District's water and reclaimed distribution systems, developing project-specific design criteria, sizing pipes and any required storage tanks, booster pumping stations, and/or pressure reducing stations, and writing a report for approval by the District's Board of Directors."

Note: the "Project engineer responsible for designing…" was suggested by my boss. If I was writing this today, I would probably just say "Designed…"

Now to your document--Here are a few specific suggestions:

You said, "I performed heat load calculations on numerous buildings." I suggest something like, "I performed heat load calculations on 27 buildings ranging in size from 30,000 sf/one story to 400,000 sf/five stories."

You said, "…design work for pipelines…" I suggest something like, "Designed water and natural gas distribution systems for seven office complexes ranging in size from three buildings (120,000 sf) on 7 acres to eight buildings (725,000 sf) on 32 acres."

When you talk about backflow prevention devices, I suggest giving size and flow rate ranges. The same goes for everything else you mention in your document. Describe sizes, capacities, etc.

I hope this helps.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[NewEngineer652]

fel3, Excellent response!
As a young engineer during the last one year of my working experience, I have learned that Engineers need to be specific in their description. For example, "I have a long rod" and "I drive alot" doesn't really mean anything to us. I am surprised the OP doesn't know this and already applying for PE license.

 

[arena7724]

fel3 - thank you for your response. I will try and add more detail to the type of project that I am working on as you mentioned. I guess I felt that was irrelevant seeing how it shouldn't matter how large the building or project is because ultimately I did perform design work regardless of size.

NewEngineer - I find your post a little insulting. In no way I felt I was being not detailed in the way you transcribed. In addition to this your questioning of my professional experience and aptitude as an engineer based soley on an application form I find unamusing and disrespectful. I have a bachelors degree and 4 years of experience in design work to be signed off by a P.E. Please, if you do not have any useful or constructive criticism please keep to yourself and find another post to troll on for your satisfaction.

 

[JedClampett]

I got the same comment about 15 years ago on my Texas reciprocity application. Not enough detail, show more relevent experience, give more detail......
So I changed the margins (larger), line spacing (larger) and the font (larger).
Went
Right
Through
The trick is to be subtle. Don't use an 18 font. Increase a 11 to 12. Or 11 to 11.5.

 

[Ingenuity]

So I changed the margins (larger), line spacing (larger) and the font (larger).

That is funny and sad!

 

[MacGyverS2000]

arena,

NewEngineer may not have worded it in the most tactful fashion, but there is a grain of truth in his sentiment that I agree with. While the rules specify 4 years min, there is a certain "is that enough?" question being raised. If you get your PE now, technically you could be mentoring someone else fresh off of the boat. A few strings like that and the last guy in the chain will have enough experience to tie his shoes. Being a PE means you not only have the experience to work on similar projects, but experience to recognize what needs to be done differently on unfamiliar projects... do you have that level of experience? It's a somewhat rhetorical question from my end, but something you should really mull over on your own.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[arena7724]

Macgyver - I understand your point and understand your worry that after four years of college someone can obtain their P.E. I have seen some incompetent P.E.'s out there especially in the civil service and local municipalities. This is New York State Requirements as well as most other states I imagine. Take it up with governor Cuomo. I have had hands on construction experience prior to me working at a design consulting firm which gave me practical knowledge which most engineers lack these days. If I was not confident in myself or received no confidence my sponsor who is a P.E. We would not be having this conversation I can assure you.

 

[Ron]

McGiverS2000 nailed it in the first post.....you shot yourself in the foot by not stating that you did you work under the direct supervision of a licensed professional engineer, who verified your responsible charge activities.

After one year I was promoted to a Mid Level Mechanical Engineer assisting in design work that involved engineering calculations and mathematics, and sizing and selecting equipment and materials to be used in design projects. After two years I was given responsibility to be the Senior Mechanical Engineer on numerous projects which gave me the responsibility of overseeing the design phase and construction phase of projects.

All design work was performed under the supervision of a Senior Mechanical Engineer and Mid Level Mechanical Engineer.

In the first quote you defined "Senior Mechanical Engineer". It is clearly someone who is not licensed, has only two years of experience and has overall responsibility of a project without the input of a licensed professional engineer. Further, in some states, the use of that term would not be allowed for you because it implies and (in most cases) requires licensing.

In the second quote, you admitted that your supervision was by individuals who, by your company's own definition, might or might not be qualified to provide such supervision in compliance with the state's engineering law.

 

[arena7724]

Ron,

Thank you for the input. I will clarify that my work was also done under the supervision of my sponsor who is the P.E. Just to also clarify, what I attached was not submitted to the State just yet so I did not shoot myself in the foot just yet haha. I wanted to post it on a forum first and get some
Constructive criticism prior to sending it in which I thank you and macqyver and others for providing me. Just an FYI I asked the state if you needed to have the sponsor be a licensed P.E. And they responded no. But I am not claiming any experience while I was in the construction industry.

 

[zelgar]

You also may wish to indicate the amount of time for the individual projected listed in item C. I realize that you've indicated the Period when you worked on them and the amount of time during the Period, but the review board may wish to know how long it took you to work on the Backflow Prevention Devices and possibly the portions of the job (e.g., dealing with the vibration issue).

Also, when talking about standards, be careful about capitalization. If you are talking about general standards, the "s" doesn't need to be capitalized, BUT if you are talking about a specific standard (e.g., ASHRAE Standards 55 and 55a) the "S" needs to be capitalized. I noticed in Period 2, the "s" not being capitalized when discussing the specific standard.

Finally, and this is a personal choice, you may wish to change from the use of voice from 1st Person (e.g., "I did this"). Instead of stating "I had to do x and y to do z." say "The project required z by utilizing x and y."

Finally, try to be clear and concise with the information you provide. Based upon your work experience, you have 4 pages of information and the information for each project is too much to be contained in 1 paragraph. It was difficult to read your work experience because it seemed to go all over the place.

 

[zeusfaber]

Warning: PE Licencing is not my field (different country and all that...)

Personally, I think this is one of those places where using the first person would be a good thing.

I interview far too many people who use constructs like "The project required z by utilizing x and y." to conceal the fact that x, y (and ultimately z), though required, never got done - or if they did get done, that the interviewee was a mere spectator.

A.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

zues,

Then the answer should be "The project required z by utilizing x and y. Therefore I used process alpha to relate beta to the measured sigma." If the interviewee can't place themselves into the actual process that they did, my BS flag starts to fly. I went through (at least) one interview where the applicant got through 30+ minutes of discussion without once giving us an indication of them having actually done ANY of the work mentioned on the resume. They were involved, somehow, some way, but they couldn't really give us a clear indication of what that involvement might have been. I start getting an eye twitch at that point and begin thinking of Office Space... "What would you say... you DO here?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[zeusfaber]

The project required z by utilizing x and y. Therefore I used process alpha to relate beta to the measured sigma.

That would do it.

A.

 

[arena7724]

Love the Office Space reference Macgyver!! But that specific quote that Zeus pointed out from your post I think explains it all for me. State the project in detail and then explain my involvement in it also in detail. I also got some information from the state recently in which they recommend 2 year intervals.

 

[Maui]

And don't even THINK of borrowing Dan's red Swingline stapler!