Most engineering professors in the very well-known (research) universities in the US do not have the PE of any state. Some months ago, an online discussion among several of them indicates that many do not even care about engineering licensure. Can one imagine a professor of medicine, training doctors, not being licensed in his state? Any ideas?
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PE for Engineering Professors 13
- Thread starter jakin
- Start date
I thought proffessors must publish or perish... In addition to imparting knowlege upon the sudents. If they publish, that would be a report about an engineering subject, which would require a stamp... So how can an engineering professor do this without a PE? All my tenured proffessors had PE's... They were also very modivated to ensure the grads would pass the FE and PE which reinforces the ABET accredication.
Perhaps you should contact the licensing board about those research reports published without stamps...
Hydrae
Perhaps you should contact the licensing board about those research reports published without stamps...
Hydrae
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SWComposites
Aerospace
Profs might have PE's in the Civil Eng field, but in other fields (Mechanical, Electrical, Aerospace) its very rare. I have never seen a stamp on an academic engineering report or paper. Frankly, IMO, ALL profs in ALL engineering fields should be required to have a PE, otherwise (the outside the Civil field) the PE requirement should be dropped. Its rediculous that I as an independent aerospace structures consultant have to have a PE (Mechanical PE even though it doesn't have anything to do with what I do) when a) virually no aerospece profs have a PE, b) almost no one working at an aerospace company has a PE, c) none of my clients care one way or the other whether I have a PE, and d) I have never had to stamp/seal anything.
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- #5
SWComposites,
I'm with you. I've found it very rare that engineering profs in mechanical, industrial, or petroleum have a PE and most of the ones I've talked to disdain the whole PE thing. They say things like "compared to my PHd, a PE is a crackerjack prize". That attitude goes a long ways toward explaining why so few schools require the FE to graduate in engineering.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
I'm with you. I've found it very rare that engineering profs in mechanical, industrial, or petroleum have a PE and most of the ones I've talked to disdain the whole PE thing. They say things like "compared to my PHd, a PE is a crackerjack prize". That attitude goes a long ways toward explaining why so few schools require the FE to graduate in engineering.
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
The harder I work, the luckier I seem
GregLocock
Automotive
No
Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to read books written by non PEs.
Why not just look at them as training facilitators - why does a trainer have to be a qualified engineer?
When I was learning to do partial differential equations did it matter whether I was being lectured by an engineer or a maths professor?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to read books written by non PEs.
Why not just look at them as training facilitators - why does a trainer have to be a qualified engineer?
When I was learning to do partial differential equations did it matter whether I was being lectured by an engineer or a maths professor?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
With the exception of one every proff at my alma mater had as least one PE. They encouraged students to take the EIT while still in school. I had a couple tell me that they mad less than a third of their income from their teaching positions.
They were allways bringing examples from the real world to the classroom. They hired grad and undergrad students to do the coolier work on a lot of their jobs and paid them pretty well. Not as much as engineers but more than most student jobs.
They were allways bringing examples from the real world to the classroom. They hired grad and undergrad students to do the coolier work on a lot of their jobs and paid them pretty well. Not as much as engineers but more than most student jobs.
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- Thread starter
- #9
The professors in the online discussion group I referred to earlier were all civil (geotechnical) engineers. The president of the ASCE tried to encourage them to be PEs, at least to set a professional example to their students. Those who didn't see the reason for licensure were all from the big research universities. It is strange because there is no way a civil or structural design can be approved anywhere without a PE stamp. Why then shouldn't a professor who teaches the design have to be licensed? Unfortunately, in most US universities, unlike in many overseas universities, professors are not required to be licensed.
GregLocock
Automotive
"Why then shouldn't a professor who teaches the design have to be licensed? "
Because teaching is not the same as consulting. Equally research is not the same as consulting.
I'd turn it on its head. Suppose a prof gets his PE and teaches full time for 20 years. How does he maintain a workable familiarity with the codes?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Because teaching is not the same as consulting. Equally research is not the same as consulting.
I'd turn it on its head. Suppose a prof gets his PE and teaches full time for 20 years. How does he maintain a workable familiarity with the codes?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
A couple of thoughts in response to some of the comments above:
1. hydrae states: "If they publish, that would be a report about an engineering subject, which would require a stamp".... I don't agree with you here hydrae - Simply publishing a paper on research in a professional publication is not necessarily the practice of engineering that regional authorities, or states, license. There are all sorts of articles written by non-PE's that are the result of expertise, lab tests, or basic knowledge that don't constitute the "selling" of professional services and don't affect the public safety and heath.
2. I think there is confusion here between the ability of a prof with a Ph.D. to teach and the ability of the licensed engineer to practice engineering. Each are doing separate things....although they revolve around the same subjects.
3. If a professor does direct research, though, then this is essentially selling engineering services to a client. My own major professor, for example, does research with composite metal decks for SDI and other deck mfrs. His tests result in written papers, reports, theses, and articles in professional journals that eventually work there way through the process and into a building code. This type of work I would think could be considered "the practice of engineering" and would require some type of licensure. Basic teaching of students would not. In fact, I would argue that the ability to know and teach engineering principles to students could not be measured properly by the PE licensure process anyway.
1. hydrae states: "If they publish, that would be a report about an engineering subject, which would require a stamp".... I don't agree with you here hydrae - Simply publishing a paper on research in a professional publication is not necessarily the practice of engineering that regional authorities, or states, license. There are all sorts of articles written by non-PE's that are the result of expertise, lab tests, or basic knowledge that don't constitute the "selling" of professional services and don't affect the public safety and heath.
2. I think there is confusion here between the ability of a prof with a Ph.D. to teach and the ability of the licensed engineer to practice engineering. Each are doing separate things....although they revolve around the same subjects.
3. If a professor does direct research, though, then this is essentially selling engineering services to a client. My own major professor, for example, does research with composite metal decks for SDI and other deck mfrs. His tests result in written papers, reports, theses, and articles in professional journals that eventually work there way through the process and into a building code. This type of work I would think could be considered "the practice of engineering" and would require some type of licensure. Basic teaching of students would not. In fact, I would argue that the ability to know and teach engineering principles to students could not be measured properly by the PE licensure process anyway.
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- #12
At least for California, the PE code is sufficiently clear that teaching would not fall under the umbrella of "practicing engineering."
Moreover, any professor in California working at a university would fall under the industrial exemption and would still not be required to be licensed.
TTFN
Moreover, any professor in California working at a university would fall under the industrial exemption and would still not be required to be licensed.
TTFN
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- #14
The value of requiring a PE (though they'd wind up on inactive status after not too long) is that to get it they'd have to have had N years of work experience (N depending on the state) in the "real world".
Well, heck. Go right to the core of it and require the work experience. Think that'll fly better or worse than a PE requirement?
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376
Well, heck. Go right to the core of it and require the work experience. Think that'll fly better or worse than a PE requirement?
Hg
Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376
GregLocock
Automotive
I'm all in favour of engineering academics getting real world experience, don't get me wrong. If they qualify for PE and maintain that standard, terrific. However, the reality is that in the context of an academic career, the pursuit and maintenance of a PE would not be cost effective.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
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- #16
Jurisdictions having a licensing requirement for those teaching engineering design courses; Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, West Virginia and Wyoming.
Vita sine litteris mors est.
Vita sine litteris mors est.
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- #17
I am not sure pursuing a PE is limited due to cost rather I think many academics are not able to qualify for the exam. I have heard the "cracker jack" analogy from many a PhD and it equates to sour grapes most of the time since they are frustrated that they cannot qualify to sit for the exam. I have mentored a few prof's to get their PE, they have not regretted it. I am for as many engineers as possible to get thier PE's but I am against any attempts to lower the bar to let academics in if they cannot qualify.
I don't think we should concern ourselves with what disiplines need a PE, all do to offer services to the public. I think getting academics licensed is a good start to advanicing our profession.
Bob
I don't think we should concern ourselves with what disiplines need a PE, all do to offer services to the public. I think getting academics licensed is a good start to advanicing our profession.
Bob
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- #18
SolderingGunslinger
Electrical
Actually, many professors who teach in medical schools do not hold an MD degree or a Dph (Doctor of Pharmacy). There are many professors who teach in law schools who hold a JD (Juris Doctorate) but have not passed the Bar exam.
As an undergrad, one of my favorite profs held a PHD in Physics, but he taught Principals of Electronic Instrumentation (The old Diefendoerfer (sp?) text) He was a good teacher, a brilliant research physist and a pretty decent guy who would buy an engineering undergrad a cold brew from time to time while we diagrammed discrete component op-amps on the bar napkin.
One could hardly argue that it is unimportant for Engineering students to learn calculus. The professor teaching that course better have his degree in math.
I have known professors who were great teachers, but couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag. I have known preofesors who had a difficult time imparting their knowlege to a class, but when it came to practical application or research, they were brilliant (It was a good thing they had good TAs)
So, I believe I would have to weigh in on the side of not requiring professors to pass the PE exam.
I remain,
The Old Soldering Gunslinger
GregLocock
Automotive
Ah, so the initial premise of this thread was faulty. Star for you Gunslinger.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
From a student's perspective, I'm interested in taking classes from folks who have mastered the subject and who're also committed, interested, creative, organized, and speak English well.
Having jumped through the hoops to attain the PE adds nothing to their ability to teach me the subject.
I've had crappy teachers who happened to be PE's and great teachers that didn't. It's immaterial -- all that matters to me is how well they can impart the subject matter.
That said, the single best engineering teacher I've had was a PE. He was also a former Marine A-6 pilot and I think that may have had as much or more to do with it as his PE.
I think the Gunslinger (with images of Roland passing through my mind's eye) put it very well. I'd only add that being a professor or having a PhD have little to do with being an effective engineering teacher, either.
The credentials don't make the teacher.
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Bring back the HP-15
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Having jumped through the hoops to attain the PE adds nothing to their ability to teach me the subject.
I've had crappy teachers who happened to be PE's and great teachers that didn't. It's immaterial -- all that matters to me is how well they can impart the subject matter.
That said, the single best engineering teacher I've had was a PE. He was also a former Marine A-6 pilot and I think that may have had as much or more to do with it as his PE.
I think the Gunslinger (with images of Roland passing through my mind's eye) put it very well. I'd only add that being a professor or having a PhD have little to do with being an effective engineering teacher, either.
The credentials don't make the teacher.
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Bring back the HP-15
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