PE Licensing 1

[BECREZ]

I stared in this business almost 30 years ago as an Electrical Draftsman. I am now an Electrical Engineering Supervisor on a large project managing other designers and engineers. I wish to keep my upward mobility and eventually move into Project Management. I have a major problem. I do not have a degree. I realize that it may be a hinderance, however I have been fortunate enough to have my company recognize that my practical talents along with my experience has allowed me to assume challenges that otherwise would be anavailable to me without the degree. I would like to get my PE license and the state I work in will allow me to take the test without a degree with 12 years of responsible engineering experience. My questions are these:
What is the best way to fill out the application such that my talents are recognized as responsible engineering and therefore the board would deem suitable to allow me to sit for the exam?
What would be the recommended study guides and/or classwork?
Is this a realistic and achievable goal?

Thanks

 

[brad]

I would recommend, before you go to the trouble of being allowed to sit for the exam that you purchase (or at least peruse) one of the many study guides for the PE and Fundamentals of Engineering/Engineering in Training exam.

You have to pass both of these exams before you get your PE.
The PE exam is fairly focused and deep; the FE/EIT exam is not as deep but very broad.

Frankly, it is the rare individual that can pass both of these exams having never taken engineering coursework. If you can do it, more power to you. However I think you should get a guage as to their difficulty before filing your petition to take them.

Brad

PS- "Potter" is the author of both texts which I used in passing both exams. "Great Lakes Press" is the publisher. There are others on the market.

 

[BECREZ]

Thanks for the tip, but just to let you know, my state will allow you to sit for the PE without the FE/EIT

 

[TheTick]

I have been looking into PE requirements for my state (Wisconsin) recently. The experience requirements are very specific. There wasn't much one could do to "pad" one's experience. However, the flip-side to that is that the requirements are realistic enough that one doesn't need to pad legitimate experience. Take a close look at your state's requirements. 99% chance it's already on the internet somewhere.

What you're talking about is not that uncommon. A friend of mine who is an engineering professor has a business preparing non-degreed persons for the PE exam. His best customer is a certain manufacturer of motorcycles in Milwaukee (who could that be???) that started requiring engineering managers that don't have a BS*E to get PE certification.

Someday, someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

 

[jdkuhndog]

Try browsing around this link...

http://www.ppi2pass.com

It helped me pass the Mechanical PE by suggesting & selling me different resources. Excellent site - there is an Electrical BB on there to pose questions as well.

Good Luck !!

 

[zdas04]

It is a complete crap-shoot what experience a state board will accept and what they won't. I submitted my paperwork to take both the EIT and the PE in 1996. The board said I could take the EIT right away, but had to wait till 2004 to take the PE. In 2002 I resubmitted basically the same request and was told I could sit for the October 2002 exam. Same state, same credentials, same person, same experiance, maybe the board members had a different lunch.

Studying for the PE is a lot of work and a big time committment. I worked about 1/2 way through Potter's book and finally just got fed up with the mistakes and the horrible answer book. Then I went to PPI2PASS.com and bought Lindburg's book and worked all the way through it. Get the NCEES sample exam. Work lots of problems (the Potter text is much better on the math and science fundementals that aren't explicitly on the exam, but make a good foundation for the stuff that is).

Good luck

David

 

[BECREZ]

I noticed that some of you have recommended the Potter book that is sold on the ppi2pass.com website. The website notes that this book is not set up for the new "breadth and depth" PE exam format. However, I was at my local library and borrowed the latest edition of the "Electrical Engineering Reference Manual", 6th edition by John A. Camara, PE. This book is supposed to be set up for the latest version of the PE exam. Does anyone have an opinion on which books would best assist me in this endevour?

 

[DanDel]

I used both the Yarbrough (Lindeburg) and Potter books for my Electrical PE test studies. I have to agree that the Potter books are filled with errors almost to the point of not being reliable for studying. The Yarbrough books are more comprehensive and have less errors.
The main point is to do as many problems as possible as often as you can before the test.
Get familiar with your calculator.
I tested under the old format, however I would not expect the new test to be much different in this respect. If you have any specific questions(I know I had many at the time) please post them and I will answer what I can.

 

[nornrich]

BECREZ,

I was involved in a review course prior to filing for admission to the PE exam. Everyone in the course had a degree and the required minimum years of experience to sit for the exam. We were all admitted to the exam except for one individual. This person had held the same job and the same position since graduation. The state's reason for rejecting his application was that he hadn't shown "progressive experience" within his profession. In this case the state was looking to see that there was a continuous improvement in the applicant and that more responsibility was being given.

I think in your case it will be evident that in working your way from draftsmen to project manager there has been a continual learning process and a demonstration that you are mastering the progressive skills needed to grow in your profession. Congratulations on getting to the point where you want to take the next step in professional development.

Rich....

Richard Nornhold, PE
nornrich@redrose.net

 

[ICman]

I am a PE and a member of the NCEES exam committee for Control Systems Engineering. We served as a guinea pig for exams in other disciplines, and as such, I learned a lot about the exam process.

I suggest you first take the FE/EIT exam. Most State boards require it (or equivalent experience), and it will prime you for the PE exam. It is all multiple choice and you are provided a manual with all of the calculation and information you will need. While you can't take this manual into the exam, they will give you a copy when you sit for the exam (don't want any "extraneous notes" brought in). It is highly recommended that you find a course at a local college to prepare for the exam.

It is possible in some states to take the PE exam the day before the FE exam (PE is given on Friday), but this is not recommended. Wait 6 months to take the PE.

Most boards require you to document your experience in great detail. You indicate what you did, who your supervisor was (the board may contact him/her), describe a few projects, and show that you have progressed upward. You need to show ALL of your time, even when you may have been out of work or doing non-engineering type work. You will also need to gather recommendations from PE's and non-PE's that know your work. Most boards will have you send forms to these people, including past supervisors.

The Control Systems exam was the first to present 8 mandatory questions, with no choices of questions to answer. The Electrical exam (I think you referred to) has (had?) something like 24 questions (12 morning, 12 afternoon), of which you picked 8 to answer.

The NCEES is heading toward all multiple-choice tests, since they're easier and less subjective to grade. They have also considered breaking up Electrical into smaller sub-groups, like Power, Circuitry, Computer, Control Systems, etc. It is a very broad field, where few are well-versed in all topics. They might look at the other "major" disciplines, as well.

Whether or not they adopt new exam formats is somewhat up to the boards. The same exam is given everywhere on the same day, which will probably not change.

The NCEES is also striving to make the PE exams practical, and not as strongly academic as they tended to be. This is good, especially in your case, for it tests the ability of the examinee to solve real-world problems. You can't learn that out of a book.

You may want to find a study course for the PE. It serves as a refresher and will give you an idea of how much you're going to have to study to pass.

One last thought: The exam process developed by the NCEES has been designed to determine who is "competent" as an engineer in a specific field. I think they do a very good job. With your experience, you should have no problem passing. Good luck!

 

[DanDel]

I have to disagree with ICman. If you are not required to take the FE test, do not take it. It will not do much to prepare you for the PE since the FE test encompasses all the basics as well as all the engineering disciplines(Mechanical, Fluid Dynamics, Chemistry, etc., etc., etc.). The PE questions, though more in depth, are based on work that you(hopefully) do every day.

 

[TheTick]

DanDel makes a good point. The FE and PE are very different tests in content and style.

I have taught test prep for Kaplan and Princeton Review. While I didn't teach FE or PE (I don't believe either of these has a course), there is a fundamental principle for test taking you should consider...

Psychologically, test taking is as much about environment as it is about knowledge. Your performance can be greatly improved by being familiar and comfortable with the format of a given test. This includes being familiar with content, style, and even appearance of the test. The mind is not a machine, and is sensitive to its environment. The more that you can practice and condition yourself to perform in actual test conditions, the better.

Let me add that I am not advocating use of shortcuts and tricks to replace knowledge. I am simply pointing out things that can greatly affect one's performance on a test that means much more than a grade to those taking it.

Someday, someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

 

[BECREZ]

DanDel- Let me say that I have discussed this matter with several of my colleagues and they all inform me that the FE is more difficult than the PE given the fact that it is so broad based in its format. Furthermore, my state will allow me to sit directly for the PE without the FE - if I prove experience satisfactory to the board (therein lies the rub -what's satisfactory??).
I hope this doesn't look like a cop-out, but if the state board is going to offer me the opportunity to sit directly for the PE exam, I'm going to take it!!

 

[ICman]

After acquiring a PE license in 4 states (thru reciprocity) and Puerto Rico, I noticed it is a much easier process if you have taken the FE/EIT. Granted, the FE and PE are very different, but some jurisdictions seem to frown on those without an EIT. It is also easier if you are a NCEES Record Holder in some states.

If you're not planning on ever seeking a license in another state, I agree that you should skip the FE/EIT exam.

What TheTick said is important, too. You'll do better if you are comfortable with the exam format. They will let you bring up to 10(?) references to the exam. I suggest you select those that you use frequently, so you can look up info quickly. I made up a notebook of commonly-used equations and references, which helped immensely.

I don't know what state you're in, but a few still have grandfather clauses for PE's. No test! (but you're limited to practice in that state).

 

[DanDel]

BECREZ, I don't know what state in which you are applying for the test, but experience that shows any kind of calculations and analyses are the most impressive to the board. Simple drafting may not be enough by itself. Design work (or design supervision) would probably help.

 

[sepanolo]

I have recently taken and passed the EE PE exam. I recommend you take a look at the EE reference book, 6th edition by Camera. The format of the test requires that you answer 40 multiple choice questions about all topics of electrical engineering in the morning session, then you can pick a depth module (power, computers, or electronics) with 40 more multiple choice questions in the afternoon.

My advice to you is this; if you think you can do the problems in the Camera book, sign up for the Electrical Passing Zone at ppi2pass.com and take a review course.

Note: The Passing Zone will only help you prepare for the morning session. Don't forget to study for the afternoon session as well.

Good Luck

 

[BECREZ]

A further question regarding the application. I am finding that the form to take the test may be more daunting than the test itself!! I need to show 12 years of progressive, qualified engineering experience and this needs to be either while under the tutaledge of a PE or if not I will have to provide documentation of this experience (i.e. calculations, papers, etc.) I find the fact that they want me to provide calculations to be absurd, as most companies you work for consider this intellectual property and proprietary. Even if I find PE's who can certify my experience, I am concerned about the way I write up that experience to ensure that it is considered appropriate by the state to allow me to sit for the exam. Any thoughts or ideas on how to best express this experience??

 

[ICman]

Rather than actually seeing calculations written down, or computer printouts, I think the Board would prefer to have a description of the type of work you did. For example, did you create an Excel spreadsheet to perform calculations previously done by hand? Were there problems you worked on that required a logical thought process to resolve? Even creating a Bill Of Material might apply.

Mostly, you have to demonstrate that you have performed ENGINEERING work.

I started out in sales (few calculations!), but described the applications I where I furnished (sold) my equipment. The equipment always solved the problem (at least in the application ), and the problems got more complex.

I think the Boards assume that a recommendation from a PE indicates engineering work. Without the recommendation, you have to prove that you are really doing engineering work.

A comment: As a PE, I once rejected an applicant . I did not feel that he had enough experience to become a PE. Didn't matter, for he got his license anyway.

 

[DanDel]

BECREZ, in my state I had to provide copies of my work(drawings, reports, analyses, and , yes, calculations) for eight years of experience(I needed 8 rather than the typical 4 years because my degree is in Engineering Technology). All this was to be limited to one pound of paper(which was the tough part).
In some ways, this was the hardest part of the application and test procedure. Just another hurdle to prove that you really deserve the PE.