PE seal over the signature 2

[heman10669]

I received the following comment:
"The raised seal must be impressed over the signature and date of execution"

I have seen engineers use that practice, however, I have not seen that specified in the Florida laws & rules for professional engineers.

I like to keeep doing it my way, which is to seal, sign next to it, and place the date below the signature.

Is there a reason I should change?

 

[BobPE]

heman10669:

I would contact the state board that is governing your seal. They will instruct you as to how you should sign and seal. Usually with an impressed seal, you sign and date, then impress the seal over that information so that it cannot be easily altered.

Bob

 

[Ron]

heman10669....sealing over the signature is not stated as a requirement in Florida; however, it is the way most engineers (myself included) choose to do it. The statute only requires the date to be under the signature...it does not state that the seal must be on top of the signature and date (but it must be on the document). It just makes sense and saves space to do it all in the same location.

 

[IRstuff]

It also makes it harder to tamper with the date

TTFN

 

[BigH]

Whenever I had to seal - not often as a geotechnical consultant - we sealed first,then put signature and date over the seal. That way no one could subsequently apply a fake seal - and there are cases out there.

 

[RDK]

Manitoba rules are to seal then sign and date over the signature.

They also prohibit electronic signatures but not electronic seals. (I have my seal in AutoCad and turn that layer on for copies to be signed.)

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Slugger926]

Either way is allowed in Oklahoma with no Electronic seals at all. I can see a point to both ways. With the signature off to the right, you can read it easy. With it over the signature, it is easy to tell when the seal was applied and that both were not forged on the engineering work.

 

[Ron]

BigH is right about the case law....there have been fraudulent uses of signatures and seals of Professional Engineers. It happend to a boss of mine about 25 years ago. Client carefully cut out signature and seal applied to a document, glued it onto another document, then made copies of the document to get approval.....it worked. Bonehead doing the approval didn't know the difference between a raised seal and a copy!

 

[Slugger926]

Oklahoma allows either use of the rubber stamp seal or the emossing seal. I bought both. Which one would you guys and gals recommend using?

 

[BobPE]

I prefer the stamp as it can be reproduced via todays copy equipment. The embossed seal was from a time of old when one or two copies of documents were needed to get a job done and the crimper was not a burden.

In todays paper driven society, I would like to see all states let us use electronic seals and signatures. But, I know with that that is only fanciful thinking for the most part.

Bob

 

[LHA]

I ditto Bob. In today's world, when a typical submittal may include 3-digits-worth of sheets and 15 copies of each, it is a waste of time.

Why does an embossed seal prevent fraud? If someone wants to forge a seal, I can't see how it would be harder to get a fake embossed one than a rubber one or an AutoCAD symbol. Each of the three is probably just an untraceable cell phone call or web search away, and I can't imagine it being harder to procure one than another.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[UcfSE]

I'm in FL also. I'm not a PE but my boss always makes sure to sign and date first and then seal over the top of those. Since that makes it illegible, or nearly so, he also has his name, PE # and date printed near the signature or some place it can easily be read. I'm pretty sure that's how you are supposed to do it but I can't say with certainty.

 

[BigH]

UcfSE - please ask your boss why. See Ron's comments - it would be interesting to know.

 

[BigH]

UcfSE - any luck yet finding out from your boss about his preferred way of stamping/signing? Just wondering . . .

 

[heman10669]

My thanks to all for the replies.

I decided to go ahead and sign, date below signature and then seal over the two. It didn't look bad after all.

But I did take the time to point out that it is not a requirement of the Florida Board.

 

[Ron]

BigH...from my perspective it's just the protection of "tamper-proofing" your document. That's why I do it. It was the "protocol" of the company I worked for early in my career, and they were considered (certainly by themselves!) to be one of the premier firms in the country (US) at the time (and in all fairness, they certainly enjoyed that reputation in the US and abroad for many years....I learned a lot in my 17+ years with them). From your Geotech background, you'd immediately recognize them.

Anyway, I think it is appropriate to seal over the signature and date and I do it on every document I produce. In Florida, EVERY sheet of plans is required to be signed/sealed in most cases...makes for tired hands on larger projects!!