Pens for markups 15

[milkshakelake]

What pens are good for markups? Like red, blue, green, and other colors. I need to relay my thoughts to drafters and engineers, and I have a different color for every type of thought (i.e. revise to this text, notes to drafters, calculations, minor drafting error, etc).

I'm currently using Pilot V5 0.5mm pens Link. They're consistent, even, and dark, but tend to jam once in a while. They're also expensive. I was wondering if there's something as good, or better, but is refillable.

I tried ball point pens. They're not as consistent as gel pens. I'm thinking of trying colored pencil leads.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Hah, just had similar thoughts that I disliked the colored pens I was using. Went to staples and bought two styles.

Sharpie felt fine pen: Nice feel writing, not bad if you like that ink marker kind of feel. However the color isn't very bold and while they're pretty good at not bleeding through they will bleed if you really go nuts on one spot.

Pentel Energel 0.7mm pens: Loving them. Vivid colors, feels good writing, smooth & consistent lines. Doesn't leave a mark if lightly brushed against the paper, requires a tiny bit of pressure to actually put ink down (this is critical to me with my crappy handwriting and terrible penmanship). Best yet, they're not super expensive and can be refilled. I'm liking these a lot.

My wife likes those pilot pens but I've never been sold on them. They're good for sure but not perfect.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)

 

[Sparweb]

I use a highlighter and a red pen. These can be consistently used whether on paper or marking up a PDF.
Markups are not artwork, so I don't understand what you are seeking in the gel pens that the ball points don't have. Or, if it's truly artwork you are after on your markups, why coloured pencils won't do?

More pens and colours can lead some people (not naming any names...) to do complicated things to a document rather than just leave it up to the creator to fix. Worse, I've seen a few people indulge in critique, discussion, and even vague theorizing during the process of drawing/document correction. And... guilty as charged.
Keep it simple. The creator will usually only want the yes/no stuff, unless you have an interpersonal contact with them that includes debate and discussion already - in which case THAT is where you can explore the best discussions.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

SparWeb: I believe I don't make things as complicated as milkshake does but I like to use one color for markup dimensions, another for notes, and then additional colors if I'm sketching something out that could be a little congested or clearer with multiple colors.

Where I really value the colors and precision of a nice pen though is in my hand calculations and sketches. I want these to be clear and concise and often I'll have to draw up something for a drafter to recreate. Thus, being able to have clear lines and differentiate between things with multiple colors really helps. Example attached. It's really no more complicated than if I used a single color but presents better in my opinion and helps a lot in some situations (like marking up a congested rebar detail).

As for gel vs ball, given that it's a tool we use a large portion of the day it should be a tool you enjoy using each time.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)

 

[milkshakelake]

SparWeb: I get what you mean that it's better to keep things simple. But I have a certain workflow that has worked over the years. Red for things that need to be changed, blue for notes to the drafter (like dimensions for drawing things that don't need to be dimensioned, or a note like "make this line thicker"), green for engineering calculations, and other colors for myself, which people ignore.

I used to use red for everything, but newer drafters would get confused and would draft things that don't need to be drafted. Like for example, I'd mark a rough uplift calculation for the engineer to consider. I'd even tell the drafter not to draft that particular thing. But the drafter would draft that anyway; they have hundreds of red marks to deal with, and mistakes are bound to happen. Then I'd have to tell them to remove it and send it to the engineer, and scold for not paying attention. Marking it in green avoids that step.

TehMightyEngineer: Thanks for the suggestions, will try those. And you picked up on the enjoyment factor. I do use pens a lot and I enjoy when they work smoothly, kind of like when software works without crashing or the car I'm driving to a meeting is smooth and quiet. Running an engineering business is very stressful, so it's good when small things work correctly. That's why I made this post, because my pens were jamming up sometimes.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Let me switch gears and agree with Spar on this though; your system sounds way more complex then it needs to be. I mean, you do what works but is it that hard to markup different drawing sets for the engineers so that the drafter doesn't see the non-relevant discussions? Paper is way cheaper than your time chasing drafting errors.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)

 

[CWB1]

I have a few colors of fine tip markers that I use on a small legal pad for quick calcs and diagrams early in the design process, but very rarely do I ever print a paper copy of anything much less do a paper markup. In the time it takes to print I can usually have markups done digitally and emailed back to the draftsman who is usually in another location. At a previous employer it was even simpler/faster as I had access to update prints myself via their PLM system and CAD, sadly my current employer has a bit more division of labor.

 

[moltenmetal]

There is only one right tool for marking up drawings for drafters.

Only one.

It is this:

http://pilot-frixion.eu/uk

Pilot makes FriXion eraseable pens AND highlighters in all the colours. And you need colour if the drafter is going to notice.

The system we use here is pen to mark-up, highlighter by the drafter after each change is made.

 

[Sparweb]

So I can tell you are all doing your markups on paper.
Your habits will change if/when you start doing markups on PDF or other electronic format.




No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[271828]

I'm currently using Pilot V5 0.5mm pens Link. They're consistent, even, and dark, but tend to jam once in a while. They're also expensive. I was wondering if there's something as good, or better, but is refillable.

I like the Pilot V7 that's labeled "Fine" rather than the ultra-fine ones you have. I don't like the ultra fine ones because my pen angle is low enough to cause them to scratch the paper.

I also like the Pilot retractable G-2, size 10, like at the following. Those are refillable, BTW.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/pi...MItIP0kKHi4QIVk8BkCh00nAtnEAQYBCABEgKHZvD_BwE

The Pilot V7 and G-2 are about the same for me, and I have never gotten my hands on a pen that writes better.

 

[12345abc6ttyui67]

Here:
Red pen - corrections.
Blue pen - Suggestions / comments which should be discussed before updating.
Green pen - Comments / notes which are for information only.
Black pen - not used.

Yellow highlighter - correct.
Blue highlighter - delete.
Orange highlighter - comments incorporated on latest revision.
Green highlighter - cross check comments incorporate on latest revision.

Pens are subjective. I like the "Frixion" pens because they can be erased and I often make spelling mistakes...

 

[jayrod12]

I like the frixion erasables as well, however they do not work well on onion skin (Trace paper). Which drives me nuts.

On trace paper I find a felt tip fine sharpie works best and minimizes smudging. I still go home with ink and lead all over the side of my hand, but at least it's minimized over the Uniball Vision we generally use.

 

[Terrifyingtesttube]

Frixion pens are nice, but be careful with them...I have had the sun erase some (non-critical) notes

 

[Latexman]

We stock red, blue, and green Pilot P-500 extra fine gel rollers in our stationary supplies. I like those.

Good luck,
Latexman

To a ChE, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water

 

[cvg]

have been using pilot razor point extra fine for years, they work good and come in multiple colors. they dont work well on shiny slick paper
I also use sharpies in different colors and tip widths, the work on virtually anything, but they dry out and bleed through thinner paper
Berol Prismacolor pencils are great and come in literally any color you can imagine. they work better than highlighters but not a very fine point
however the move these days is to markup in adobe or blue beam so no ink or paper required.
as far as communicating with the drafter, it is quite easy to add the words "Note to drafter" and a smart drafter understands that is not to be drafted

 

[GeoEnvGuy]

I use the multicolored pen 4 in 1, typically go with red, blue, then green as the page I print out is usually black and white as back in the day we never had colored printers so it it all came down to linetypes.

https://www.shoplet.com/BIC-Ballpoi...um=cpc&utm_campaign=BPA - All Products&rtop=1

 

[Celt83]

As a Lefty:
Staedtler Pigment Liners 0.3 or 0.5 tips - Link
Sakura Microns 05 tips - Link

Both are fast drying and archival ink

I've also been liking the Paper-Mate Flair felt tip pens , though they don't dry as fast so end up with some ink on my hand but they are also much cheaper.
Link

Open Source Structural Applications:

https://github.com/buddyd16/Structural-Engineering

 

[SwinnyGG]

I write A LOT.

I use up 6" x 4" pads at about 1 per week. Notes, quick calculations, meeting minutes, etc etc.

I use fountain pens for 100% of my writing- I have many but the most common are Lamy Safaris as they are inexpensive and are not very ink sensitive (ie they write well nearly regardless of ink choice). Pens are a bit of an interest for me, so I wouldn't expect the whole world to switch and I'd never say they are the optimal tool, but they're what I like best. I could wax philosophical for many paragraphs on pen and ink choices. But I digress.

The markup scheme we use here is:

-Red ink for changes required

-Blue ink for comments/questions/notes

-Green highlighter indicates an item has been checked and requires no revision

The policy here is that when a checked drawing is returned, EVERY item (every dim/balloon/callout/line item on a BOM) MUST have either a red mark of some kind, or a green highlighter mark indicating it is OK.

We've tried more complicated systems with more colors, and I've found that there's a balance between overloading a drawing with too much information, and being able to provide enough info that corrections are made accurately and correctly the first time.

I have my own system for notes and drawings, which uses 4 colors (green, red, blue, brown) but I'm a weirdo and don't expect my whole team to use it.

 

[SAITAETGrad]

More pens and colours can lead some people (not naming any names...) to do complicated things to a document rather than just leave it up to the creator to fix. Worse, I've seen a few people indulge in critique, discussion, and even vague theorizing during the process of drawing/document correction. And... guilty as charged.

I thought this was a (meritoriously) thought-provoking commentary. If you can spare the time to write an expansion - there is at least a limited audience.

Should coaching or sharing of design thoughts be removed from a review so that it is simply the things that must be corrected? Or did you just mean in terms of the annotations? How does this balance slide (if at all) based on who the check is for?

If the answer diverges from the OP's question, suggest answering briefly here followed by a separate thread, blog post or book.

 

[CWB1]

On digital markups we only mark the print with suggested changes. Doodling, comments, etc appears as a small flag icon on the relevant section of the print. Click the flag and a separate window appears to contain whatever is thought necessary, which is commonly only used on very complex prints where multiple engineers and draftsmen are collaborating.