Pens for markups 15

[milkshakelake]

What pens are good for markups? Like red, blue, green, and other colors. I need to relay my thoughts to drafters and engineers, and I have a different color for every type of thought (i.e. revise to this text, notes to drafters, calculations, minor drafting error, etc).

I'm currently using Pilot V5 0.5mm pens Link. They're consistent, even, and dark, but tend to jam once in a while. They're also expensive. I was wondering if there's something as good, or better, but is refillable.

I tried ball point pens. They're not as consistent as gel pens. I'm thinking of trying colored pencil leads.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Should coaching or sharing of design thoughts be removed from a review so that it is simply the things that must be corrected? Or did you just mean in terms of the annotations? How does this balance slide (if at all) based on who the check is for?

Coaching and information sharing is absolutely part of the review process for drawings (at least for me). And yes, notes are definitely tailored to the specific skill/experience level/specialty of the designer feeding them to me.

The type of feedback required also depends on where we are in the design process. If the design concept is not yet complete, a prelim drawing might be full of alternate design ideas. If we're doing final detailing, the drawing redlines might consist of dim and GDT checks/verification only. The approach is dictated by the situation.

With regard to coaching and feedback: I much prefer to do this part of the job via conversation than to write things down, for a couple of reasons.

1) Some (most?) people, in my experience, take criticism MUCH better if you look them in the eye than if you write things down. Maybe I've hired a bunch of snowflakes, but it seems that way to me. In similar fashion, I almost never criticize or make corrections via email; I'll send an email asking one of my guys or girls to come see to me, then I'll deliver required feedback in person. I'll do the same thing on drawings. If something needs discussion, approval is withheld and there's a "see me" note on the drawing somewhere.

2) I don't like people outside of my team's orbit to see long corrective notes on drawings. This is, perhaps, specific to my situation and group of reports and supervisors, but it seems that if I write notes to people on drawings, inevitably some supervisor from another department will see something not intended for their eyes, and start asking questions about how incompetent our people are or why they need so much critiquing (or whatever). In an effort to shield myself and my team from this unnecessary interference in our feedback loop, I prefer to have discussions on technique, if they are required, in my office with the door closed.

If you work in a shop where you can iterate with no interference, than this level of "get off my lawn" may not be required. Someday......

 

[Pinwards]

Red pen for revisions/corrections to be made by the drafter, blue for notes to that that don't need to be drafted directly (some drafters take redlines way too literally otherwise). We use the Staples OptiFlow Rollerball Pens currently, which I like. Just don't spill anything on them, they bleed horribly when wetted.

#

 

[milkshakelake]

Thanks for all the suggestions, will definitely try out some of those. Especially looking forward to the Pilot Frixion and Sakura Microns. I didn't expect this to develop into a discussion about how to mark up drawings, but the different perspectives are well appreciated.

@SparWeb: I've been doing paper markups too long to switch to electronic. I can adapt to new codes and software, but not something that drastic. I imagine it's like when paper drafting turned to AutoCAD.

@TehMightyEngineer: It takes too much time for me to mark up things separately for drafters and engineers; I have to mark something up and then respond to emails or go to a meeting. I have to rely on my team coordinating with each other, otherwise I'm dead. Maybe there should be a discussion on workflow in general, but that's beyond this post. (I also work too much, like 60-70 hours a week, so that kind of discussion would probably be helpful on another post.)

@jgKRI: Can you talk a bit more about fountain pens vs other pens for engineering markups (not general writing)?

 

[Sparweb]

I work with millennials, and this is the 21st century, so I embrace the new tools of communication, like this very forum! Hopefully it's appreciated. Marking up a PDF rather than paper is hardly an inconvenience and saves a few trees.

If you can spare the time to write an expansion - there is at least a limited audience.

I'm not sure I have much more to offer.
A few other comments have come since yours that I can respond to.

I have checked many, many drawings and reports over the years. And I have had many red-marks misread/misunderstood by the "checkee", too. So I had to admit that I may have been to blame sometimes for scribbling too many notes and paragraphs of random musings. Especially when returned to the creator by e-mail in an incompatible time zone, this would frequently stifle discussion of the issues and the creator was left to figure out what I meant. The choice of ink could not have fixed the problem. Picking up the phone while I was at lunch but they were hard at it 2 time zones away, did.

When I said "The creator will usually only want the yes/no stuff" there was an implicit assumption that the creator of the document has handed it to you expecting it to be OK, otherwise why would he/she not have corrected the known deficiency? I admit I have passed drawings along, not because I knew they are perfect, but because I had exhausted my mental energy on them. So the creator usually expects the work to be accepted or rejected. To change that relationship between the checker and checkee into one that includes a flow of detailed information requires trust and an exchange of ideas. Scribbled notes on the margin of a drawing are, IMHO, not the best way to do that if you have ANY OTHER MEANS of communicating with the other person at all. I regularly follow-up my red-marks with a discussion, and make it equally clear that people checking my work should approach me with the same. At times, that's not practical, so a few sentences are necessary, but now that I've built up the trust and discussion previously, a foundation of understanding and common context already exists to fill in the blanks. It gets more efficient, the longer you work with people this way.

This subject can fork away into a number of other issues:
Does the creator who ignores red-marks or repeatedly misunderstand them reveal himself as a bad designer?
Does the creator who makes new errors upon correcting the first red-marks reveal himself as a bad designer or me as a bad checker?
Which creators get the most benefit from the ensuing discussion, and which ones avoid it? And why?
And so on... I would get in over my head quickly if I tried to explore these.

Engineering is a team sport.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[Agent666]

try doing markups two times zones away where the drafters in the other office don't speak english. I delivered an entire project like this once. What I learned was drafting mistakes start with the engineer, bad instructions = bad drawings no matter what the level of experience of the drafter.

I learned a lot, but you must be 100% clear, do whatever it takes, if it means doing more sketches, providing an example detail to copy, print instructions rather than using your usual scrawled handwriting, amending the drawing yourself and sending it back to show that person what was actually required. Secondly, don't underestimate the engineering time involved in providing these clear instructions if dealing with remote resources, but its time well spent.

Next time you get back a drawing that somehow misinterpreted your comments, instead of blaming the drafter, take another look at your comments and see where it may have gone wrong and learn for next time. Don't underestimate the power of talking the drafter through the changes, especially the 'why are we doing it this way' type stuff, you know the stuff that's absolutely required to be this dimension vs that which the drafter might have some license to amend/fudge for simplification reasons.

The company I was at at that time had the usual red = change, blue = comment system, plus a system for highlighting comments as being incorporated during back drafting/checking. It worked really well but did take some discipline to follow. Next company I went to had zero system and engineers that wrote briefest of comments with little back checking to ensure they were incorporated correctly. Real messy, lots of mistakes, poor drawing quality, tried to implement change but they had become masters of that workflow and it was like trying to get blood out of a stone, eventually left after a lot of frustration.

As far as pens go to get back on topic, any sort of gel pen is preferred, but really whatever I have handy works. I seem to be one of those people who go through like 20 pens in a week and have no idea where they go, almost never run one dry before getting it misplaced or nicked. Curse of the lefty usually means a ball point is better as less chance of smudging, but it usually looks a lot worse and doesn't flow as nicely on the paper (requiring more effort/harder pressing).

 

[Sparweb]

There you go; two contrary points of view:
1) Minimal markup, followed by verbal discussion to explain and confirm understanding - variety and type of pens used is irrelevant
2) Detailed markup, with notes & illustrations to assure comprehension and correction - combinations of ink provides additional information

I'm not sure which is best. I prefer (1) because it's doing well for me now, while (2) has failed me more often than I'd like to admit.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[SwinnyGG]

@jgKRI: Can you talk a bit more about fountain pens vs other pens for engineering markups (not general writing)?

There are no benefits to using fountain pens for markups, unless you like them already. They are a lot more work than buying Bic ballpoints by the gross. I mostly mentioned them just as an opportunity to stump for my particular hobby.

The ink is typically not waterproof (depending on what you use), it takes much longer to dry (sorry lefty, you're screwed) and is generally finicky. Fountain pen users are typically easy to spot- I always have a spot of ink on a finger somewhere from the day's refill.

Other than aesthetics and starting conversations, the prime practical benefit is that writing requires much less effort- as I said before I write A LOT. I used to have major hand and wrist problems in my right hand from smashing a ballpoint into a notepad all day. When I went full-on pen nerd, those problems went away quickly.

 

[StrucDesignPE]

I have used these pens and they are some of the best writing pens I have had. Brand is M&G. I actually got one of these from a friend that had traveled overseas, so the only place I have been able to find them is online.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UTVTYEI/ref=dp_cerb_3

https://www.amazon.com/Retractable-...=B012XZQOJK&psc=1&refRID=TM4J096HNTHAZMR3C5SQ

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B012ZRFZTQ/ref=psdc_1069828_t2_B00UTVTYEI

 

[btrueblood]

jgkri,

I've become a fan of fountain pens too, recently. I do less markup stuff than I do note-taking, and said notes usually near machines in test; fluids from the machines have spoiled more notebooks than I care to count, and I've lost some notes to those accidents. I even tried so-called permanent markers, but most/all of these will bleed if alcohols (glycols) and similar polar solvents get spilled on them. So, I researched and found Noodler's brand "bulletproof" inks, which are resistant to damn near everything, including lasers and bleaches. But they are made for refillable fountain pens, so I started down that rabbit hole. And found that the inks run just fine in Lamy Safari fountain pens. A side benefit - fountain pens are just easier on the hand to use, they run without having to apply any pressure like ballpoints seem to need. I use Noodler's polar green and blue, and eel black specifically, as they have a slightly longer dry time than other inks, and thus tend to clog/hard start much less. I also have the Fox Red ink running in a Pilot Kakuno, which works fine, but the red will bleed a bit when wetted. Not enough to completely run like other inks, but enough that I use it much less frequently (it's also more expensive than the other 3 inks, but still less expensive than some fancier inks). Best thing about all of the Noodlers bulletproof inks is that they react with cellulose, binding to the paper, but don't react to skin or even soak into it much, so I usually have clean fingers after a little soap and water cleanup. As far as dry time, yeah, leftys are in trouble, but the inks are smudge-resistant after about 5-10 seconds on cheap paper, which is good enough for me.

 

[cvg]

fluids from the machines have spoiled more notebooks than I care to count, and I've lost some notes to those accidents

this is why we were taught in survey class to use a hard bound notebook and a pencil for field notes. graphite does not run and pencils work even in the rain

 

[Compositepro]

I had never heard of a Frixion pen until this thread. Then, a couple days ago, I was looking in a bag of literature from a trade show and find one that I had gotten for free. It took me about two minutes to figure out how to use it. Pushing on the button on top did not do anything (the eraser). This is the only pen I have ever seen where you have to push the pocket clip toward the tip of the pen. It is rather disconcerting to have spent a career figuring out how things work and then to be challenged by a pen. I still would never have known about the eraser without reading it here.

 

[Mr168]

Used to like the Pilot G-2's, and then they changed something a few years ago that made them feel "scratchier" when writing. Have since switched to Uni-Ball Signo pens instead.

 

[SwinnyGG]

But they are made for refillable fountain pens, so I started down that rabbit hole.

That's how it starts ha ha.

Noodler's inks are great- that's what I started on. I now use Iroshizuku inks for daily writers, with one pen at home with Noodler's 54th Massachusets for things that need permanent ink- signing checks, etc.

Next time you need a pen, check out TWISBI's Eco line. Great, non-tempermental writers ala Safari, but with a screw cap so they don't dry out as quickly.

Also check out De Atrementis' Document line of inks if you ever want or need an alternative to Noodler's. The Document series are all pigment based, and you can mix them together to create custom waterproof and permanent colors, if you want to go that far down the rabbit hole.

 

[ProEpro]

don't let frixon notes get hot like in a car or the mail. They will disappear. Sometimes freezing them will get them back. My wife learned the hard way.

This style is my favorite. It includes black, red, blue and a pencil. My old Japanese mangers use them with skill to mark up my work.

https://www.jetpens.com/Zebra-Clip-...nt-Multi-Pen-0.5-mm-Pencil-Black-Body/pd/1525

 

[btrueblood]

cvg - "this is why we were taught in survey class to use a hard bound notebook and a pencil for field notes. graphite does not run and pencils work even in the rain"

And who or what prevents you (or somebody else, more maliciously) from erasing/rewriting your pencil marks? Ink is the standard for note-taking in an lab/r+d environment, since I was in school, and where patents may be granted based upon originality and first-to-the-gate considerations. But yeah, Rites-In-Rain notebooks and pencils are a thing for the outdoors in the wet. But add some motor oil or glycol coolant to those pages, and your lovely graphite don't work no more, and may (if the oil has some detergent properties) smear out if the pages are rubbed inadvertantly. Surveying in the rain is a different environment entirely, really.

jgkri, So the TWIBSI will run 54th Mass reliably? Every pen I've tried it in would suffer from hard starting, even with regular cleaning at each refill. Even my wettest pen (Pilot Falcon with the soft M nib) would struggle. Love the ink, it's color and bullet-proofness is bomb. But I had a slip-seal Platinum for awhile, and it struggled even more. Never tried the TWIBSIs, but may have to. Have also heard that cheap Xinhaos do ok, especially if you tweak the nibs a bit to make them flow wetter (and if you screw up, hey they're cheap). Not enough of an adventurer to try pigment inks, as I've read they can clog a pen semi-permanently?

Like you said, writing with a fountain pen is pure joy relative to other pens and pencils, and the refill-ability from relatively cheap ink bottles (I have four bottles of Noodler's ink, and they will likely last me about 10 years) beats anything else I've ever used.

 

[SwinnyGG]

The Eco that I have is a wet writer, and I've had no issues using 54th in it. It has a pretty good internal seal inside the cap, and the cap thread itself also has an o-ring. Much better than a Safari as far as drying out.

I experimented with a couple of pigment ink samples when I first started but I got tired of having to clean and tune a nib just because I didn't write for a couple of days.

 

[Agent666]

I always thought using pencil in calculations was for intended for people who made mistakes.....

 

[moltenmetal]

ProEpro- the thread is about tools to mark up drawings for drafting. You're right that FriXion pens wouldn't be ideal for field markings in a hot climate where drawings had to sit in a hot car! Certainly no good for notes under those circumstances either. But for marking up drawings at your desk, you can't beat them- high visibility, clean eraseability, even as a highlight rather than as a pen...these things are such a huge improvement over a normal ball point pen, mechanical pencil or pencil crayon that it's incredible.

 

[Agent666]

... and evidence of any bad markups or calculations disappear over time... possible win?!, less evidence at annual review time, this calculation will self destruct in ... !

I never really got that into the frixion pens, the ink always seemed very light in colour, almost pastel like, but maybe that's because the ones I seem to find around the office is some coworkers with an affinity for pink or purple ink....

They seem quite expensive as well (at least here), but I see the point on being able to erase contradictory comments, like say you change your mind or need to strike out comments from others, etc, leading to less chaotic markups if they have to go through many hands before going to be back drafted.


One thing ball points have over other types is you can write over errors and add emphasis to the correction without it turning into a complete mess, also write better over correction tape or white-out (real problem for us lefties with gel type pens!), need to wait for it to dry before carrying on.

 

[cvg]

And who or what prevents you (or somebody else, more maliciously) from erasing/rewriting your pencil marks?
nothing prevents me from changing things, I think I am allowed to do that if I want. and I have not had issues with malicious erasing of any field notes.

Ink is the standard for note-taking in an lab/r+d environment, since I was in school, and where patents may be granted based upon originality and first-to-the-gate considerations. I never submit anything for patents and all my college labs either required pencil or just didn't care, none required ink of any kind

But yeah, Rites-In-Rain notebooks and pencils are a thing for the outdoors in the wet. But add some motor oil or glycol coolant to those pages, and your lovely graphite don't work no more, and may (if the oil has some detergent properties) smear out if the pages are rubbed inadvertantly.
motor oil will prevent just about anything from sticking, won't it?

Surveying in the rain is a different environment entirely, really. yes it is, and most of my field notes really are taken outside in the weather