people skills 20

[dpark247]

I'm an engineer trying to go to the next to the next level in my career but am finding people skills is my biggest road block, any advice or recommendations on books to help?

I am a very competent technical employee and get excellent performance appraisals, but I'm afraid my relationship with my boss is preventing any further advancements. After about a year working with him I had asked for a letter or recommendation for promotion (typical in my company) and outlined the companies requirements for that position and how I've exceeded those requirements under him (I would still work under him with the promotion). In political nice words he said no not right now but agreed with me with how I've meet the requirements and offered no additional suggestions on what he'll need to see from me to feel comfortable before he issues a letter or recommendation, except for keep doing what I'm doing. 2 years later and a couple follow up conversations and no progress. on top of this I see him as a B-rate manager and bad leader...gives tasks with deadlines and very seldom gives private encouragement and never public encouragement and does anything towards team leadership or motivation.

I'm finding my failure of getting a letter of recommendation for promotion (even though I've been getting stellar performance appraisals that seem useless to me at this point) leaving me with a passive manipulative attitude with him and end up being short and if not difficult with him. I think I also have a critical view of authority and see him as not worthy of managing which probably makes it worse for me. Ultimately I know I need to be a joy to work with (especially to my boss) and am looking for advice or book suggestions on how to not have this reaction and be supportive in such a situation.

 

[MortenA]

@andrive, lots a good advice in your post, however i would like to challenge one ting and that is your notion that "..would love to do more of the business side because that is how you move up in this world. " If you like a management position - by all means "go to the dark side" - but if what you like is your perception about prestige and [perhaps my interpretation] high salary? i must warn you that not all that glitters is gold! I have chosen the purely technical "road" and i know that i make more than many of my friends who has gone the management way. I also feel more secure in my position and content.

I think that if you really dream about the big bucks you should consider that in most circumstances this means that you must stop working for others and start working for your self! Im a salary worker and quite happy as such, but i knew years ago that if i wanted a big income i would have to go the self employed way (starting a business, working as an independent contractor or whatever) and i simply didnt want to do that since i also have a family and dont consider my work to be all of my life and personality.

Best regards, Morten

 

[oldestguy]

Hey Mort: Being your own boss is not a 40 hr a week job if it pays as you say.

 

[FoxSE14]

@andriver, mostly great advice, and it sounds like you are a really well rounded individual, with a bright future. Kudos to you.

Your situation sounds familiar, but as a proud SE likely only a handful of years your senior at most (age 30): Be very aware -- the path you are on may leave you scratching your head in a decade or two asking yourself if the 50+, or 60+ hour weeks was worth it. You may not see this now, but when spouse and kids come calling for your time, you'll likely have a different take on priorities. Pushing such a feeling aside may eventually leave you disgruntled, or divorced, and strapped to your desk (shiny Director/Principal/Partner corner office desk as it may be) as that is the only creative/social outlet you've ever known. I was recently surrounded by many senior staff fitting such descriptions; burned out myself, I made some major career adjustments but am fortunate to remain an SE in the consulting space. Happiest I've been since college.

be the person who volunteers for that random task even when you're slammed

I left a culture where this was expected - it was absolute poison for everyone involved. Eventually, you need to learn to say "no" to this, or, for a greater challenge, tactfully tell an internal/external client "it can wait until tomorrow/Monday" so that you and/or your future underlings can get home for the evening.

"Work To Live. Do not Live To Work." ....At the end of it all do you want to look down at all the rungs you've climbed? Or do you want to look around at the family you've created (if you chose to), the friends you've made, and the experiences you had because you carved out time for a life outside of work? If you want that, you've got to plan space for such in your life as well.

Cheers.

 

[dArsonval]

dpark247 originally asked, "...people skills is my biggest road block, any advice or recommendations on books to help?"

Real-World Engineering (A guide to achieving career success)
By Lawrence J. Kamm

The book devotes 6 chapters in Part 2 to people problems.

Published by IEEE PRESS (Originally published by McGraw-Hill)
ISBN 0-87942-279-3

John

 

[andriver]

@Morten: I concede the management side may not be what its cracked up to be. I should have been clearer, in that it most likely suits my specific skill set. I am technically competent and am still learning, but as stated in my post, others are better at it than I. I realize this, and have adjusted my career expectations accordingly. I always thought I wanted to do design all my life, but you don't know what you want until you are living it.

@FOXSE: Also very sound advice, as someone who already works the 60 hour weeks, I can imagine this getting old as soon as I have a family. I think I was just giving him examples of how to set himself apart from the rest, which seams like his goal.

@dArsonval: I searched that book on Amazon and they sell used versions for $4.00. 2 day shipping is included with my Amazon subscription so I will be reading that book beginning this week.

 

[MortenA]

@oldestguy, exactly why i have always worked for others I dont have the drive to go all in on my job, and i like to do other things as well! Im content with my salary and my 40 hrs a week But i _believe_ that if you dream about being rich thats not the way!

 

[truckandbus]

This pic sums it up

 

[clouser]

When we were in college, my wife worked in the service deli at Albertsons. She was long due for a promotion to cashier, which came with a healthy pay increase. As a pair of struggling college kids, we could have used the extra dough.

She was constantly passed up for promotion by people with less qualifications and less seniority. Perhaps could have sued their asses off, because this was not just in any way.

But the reason she was passed up time and time again was quite simple. She had an incredible work ethic, was extremely reliable, and her manager didn't want to let her go. So, for being a good worker, she got screwed. This probably happens all the time.

And to that effect, I've seen some of the worst individuals promoted. In engineering, poor engineers somehow make good managers in the minds of corporations. As we all know, this isn't really true, but maybe they can do less damage than actually participating in the engineering process.

Another rule of life is that there are no unicorns. A unicorn in this scenario is a company that will pay an employee a penny more than they have to. I've noticed this at about every position I've held. No employer is going to go out of their way to increase your pay. It's a game of poker. You have to find out if they really need or care about you by threatening to leave.

And that brings up my final point, the best way BY FAR to get a raise or promotion is to go somewhere else.

Think of your employment like a relationship. The company is the man and you are the woman. You need to be attractive to the company. The company then needs to woo you to come work for them. Then there's a short courtship, perhaps flowers from time to time, maybe a box of chocolates, and then when your stuck in the relationship, all the romance is gone. The company is walking around in it's underpants burping and you're stuck in the kitchen doing dirty dishes longing for Fabio.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I've had good bosses and some not-so-good bosses over the nearly 50 years of my engineering career and one of the things that all of my really good bosses had in common was that they told me that not only do you need to keep yourself fully qualified for your current role in the organization but that you owed it to yourself to make yourself promotable. In fact, they had my retirement party last night and my boss from when I first joined the company, 35+ years ago, was there (and he was one of the really good ones). I was working for him when I got transferred to Detroit in 1986 to take over our Mid-West Sales Support region. And last night my wife was talking to him about those early years and she came right out and asked what he thought about losing me when I accepted that opportunity, and he admitted that he would have liked for me to have stayed in his group but he knew that I had earned the promotion and that at that particular moment, it was that place in our organization where I could be most effective and where my talents and skills could best be put to use. So while it created a 'hole' in his group, he knew that he couldn't stand in the way of my getting the job and opportunity that I deserved and had worked so hard for.

I thought that was very insightful of him and I think it perhaps also helped my wife better understand why I had decided to come to work for this company in the first place and why I had stayed with so long and worked as hard as I did. It was also great that all three of our sons were at the party as well, as it gave them some insight into what I had done all these years and how others saw what it is that I had contributed. Now all three are grown (they're 45, 45 and 37) with families and careers of their own, but I think it was good that they got to see who their 'old man' really was and what other people thought of him ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[PatCouture]

Happy retirement Mr Baker! I hope you'll keep showing up here!

 

[HamburgerHelper]

Almost sounds like advice here that has been posted before that a path into management is to know too much and screw up one project.

I don't know. To be able to manage people well is a completely different skill from being a good engineer. One of the best managers I have had just had a high school degree and knew his job was just to provide the resources for everyone else to do their job. He was towards the end of his career and never danced or played games to try to get into upper management. An engineer that I worked with that was from Sweden sometimes would talk about how this mindset was more prevalent back in Sweden. I wish management wasn't treated as a better path so that it wouldn't draw in people that are just looking for better pay and perks instead of people who naturally like to and are good at managing people.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I have to admit, that at least a couple of my best bosses in those nearly 50 years were ones who did not have all that a strong engineering background but were rather individuals who KNEW the value that your skills brought to the job and how your contribution was helping him with his management. They tended to stay out of your way and let you do your thing. I have to admit that after I had worked a few years managing a group of about 20 very technically skilled people, spread across 5 or 6 cities in the Mid-West, when I got a change to move into R&D in a Product Management role, I was sort of glad as I have to admit, I was one of those bosses who found it very hard to not get too involved in what was going on and while I think I did a good job and my people both respected and liked me, it was better all round when I decided to manage products rather than people. Besides, due to how our company worked, I retained all the perks I had earned by having been in management but ended up with none of the responsibilities. What could have been better then that ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[SouthernEngineer]

I have two book recommendations.

Enchantment by Guy Kawasaki
People Skills by Robert Bolton

I also agree with the How to Win Friends and Influence People book suggestion.

Also, I sense you are frustrated. Lighten up a bit and know that this will not always be. Be thankful for where you are now. You may be being protected from something.

 

[KENAT]

One of the few compliments* my former director ever gave me was that 'I had good people skills' - he rewarded this by giving me a notoriously awkward contractor designer's project to manage.

Anyway, my main suggestion is to follow the golden rule (no not he who has the gold makes the rules - the other one).

Treating others as you would like to be treated is a pretty good starting point.

Can be difficult to apply in situations where the other person seems to be acting unreasonably - and I certainly often fall short - but it's one of my guiding principles.

(*Pretty sure he saw it as a compliment though in my head I second guessed him and thought it meant he felt my technical skills weren't that strong.)

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[breakiron]

After having years in the oil and gas field (mid-stream and down-stream) as a engineer (office and field)which is a very competitive and rewarding field. I feel that A manager and company outlook and attitude can be a very important factor in advancement. Usually it is beneficial to switch jobs early in a career to improve pay and responsibility. Or to have a new position available and say "they are willing to give me this position at this salary, if you cant match it I must move on". But I don't worry about monetary raises only responsibility raises, if I work hard the money will come later. Here is what I do if I am feeling I have a problem at work:

1. I write a list of pros and cons for my job and career and verify my findings with others.
2. I very thoroughly discuss all items on the list with people I look up to in my field.(and my mom)
3. I make very sure I am not the problem.
4. I bring a list of important points with me to A meeting with my boss ( set up in advance off coarse), and go through them one by one.
5. I decide from the meeting if I need to start looking for a new job or not. or if I have a good opportunity in my current job and I myself need to change.

This usually clears things right up and puts me on the track to success.
I will not stay at a company that I feel I will not make advancements in if it is at no fault of mine.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

It is kind of curious how this thread is drawing so many new accounts/first time posters.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I suspect that it might be a combination of this thread being a 'soft' topic yet one that may be of interest to younger people and thus newer Eng-Tips members. And even older 'lurkers' may feel that here is something that they can contribute to without having to dive deep into some purely technical topic where they may not feel confident enough yet to contribute. Perhaps posting here and getting their feet wet will help them jump into some of the other forums and threads as they horn some of the "people skills" only in this case the ones related to responding in an environment like Eng-Tips.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[clouser]

It looks like the original poster may have left the building...

If not, I don't agree with all the people who are down on you. Saying things like hang in there, be patient and you will be rewarded, etc. That's probably not the case.

Corporations are selfish and greedy. It's a survival thing. They can't necessarily pay everybody what they are worth, and they certainly can't pay everyone what they think they're worth. And promotions can often be extremely irrational.

I left a company largely because of this. I was doing all the engineering for my division, plus I constantly had to help our sister branch due to their mismanagement. So because I had so much work, they promoted a different engineer, one who was almost (not completely, but almost) worthless into management. Now, I didn't necessarily want to go into management, but this is dysfunctional and insulting. Oh, and often I did this moron's work for him too, because he thought he was above it all.

And to add insult to injury, they were going to place me under an engineering manager that spent his entire career trying to not be an engineer. This guy climbed the corporate ladder like one of those guys on American Ninja! So imagine being at the top of your game as a design engineer and then having to answer to people that never even tried it and avoided it like the plague. NO THANKS.

At that point, it's just time to move on.

Another thing to consider is the law of bureaucracy. It says that there are two types of people in a bureaucracy. the first is someone devoted to the cause. These are the engineers, designers, technicians, and others that focus on the core purpose of the entity. The second type of person is someone devoted to the bureaucracy its self. These are managers, accountants, and other necessary evil that run the business.

The law of bureaucracy states that the people that fill category two will take over and command the entity. They will do this to the peril of the type one person. All my career, I have strongly been a type 1 person and have seen this law repeated over and over again. The type 1 person will be held under foot and will only be allowed to prosper so much that it does NOT threaten the positions of the type 2 personnel.

In fact, as you see corporations grow, you will see more emphasis on the type 2 people and the deemphasis on the type 1. It's rare to find a healthy corporate culture that avoids this and truly tries to reward individuals based on their value. This is one reason I prefer small corporations to work for. Less type 2 people mulling around with their coffee cups and newspapers.

When I left the aforementioned company, I took years of knowledge with me. Some of it will be lost forever. This was a company that even claimed to value it's talent and claimed they understood the cost of losing a valuable employee. I'm sure it will take hundreds of thousands of dollars to replace me and get that next individual up to the knowledge level that I was at.

But for some reason, most companies would rather do that then give the appropriate promotions, raises, etc that the employees may deserve.

So if you are in a dead-end job where they don't really appreciate you, either shut-up and live with it, or move on.

I've never regretted moving on.

And I might add, moving on is how you get experience. There's no better way to be well-rounded then to work in a variety of industries.

 

[BSMEclassof2012]

I agree with everyone who suggested the Carnegie's book "how to win friends and influence people". I found out about this book on this forum and have been reading it for about a month now. The author talks about specific habits that one can develop to learn how to deal with people(the secret to success in professional world, in my opinion).

Other than that, "clouser" sounds very smart and I am sure we can all learn from his experience in future(assuming he replies again).