personal engineer insurance for past projects

[delagina]

I want to protect myself from lawsuit due negligence not only from client and but also my employer (like if client sue employer and me and employer sue me also). I don't really know if employer can even sue me for negligence.

I want a personal insurance for negligence whoever sue me (client or employer) for all my projects (past, present and future).

Is it possible to get insurance including all my past projects as well.
I'm concerned because I'm the only civil engineer in my company office location. When I stamp drawings, my work is not peer reviewed for errors.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

I imagine there is ways to get insurance on past projects. Insurance companies exist to make money and have experience quantifying risk. I imagine it would be expensive due to the fact that there is a chance that you know something about these projects or the very fact that you are looking for past coverage paints them in a risky light.

 

[Terratek]

A company that carries their own E&O insurance will indemnify their employees. There is no way to prevent getting personally sued. But unless you are very wealthy, no lawyer cares about the percentage of collection he/she could get from your shallow pockets, anyways. There is basically no motivation to go after the employee when all the money to be had sits in the employer's insurance policy. There are no such things as personal E&O policies for individuals. So, the only 100% E&O protection you can afford yourself is to get out of engineering, or at least never seal anything.

 

[WARose]

There is no way to prevent getting personally sued. But unless you are very wealthy, no lawyer cares about the percentage of collection he/she could get from your shallow pockets, anyways. There is basically no motivation to go after the employee when all the money to be had sits in the employer's insurance policy.

I've always hoped the "deep pockets" theory will work as well. But I'm not so sure how well it would. It doesn't take much to attract those scavengers. My mother got sued once (by a slip and fall con man) for about 20 k. (The settlement was for 10.)

IIRC, the EOR has to be named as a co-defendant in a E&O type lawsuit. Not 100% sure how the damages would be broken up.....and don't want to find out either.

This is one of the reasons I went into business for myself: the indemnification clause in the operating agreement of my company. I'm fairly certain that other companies I have worked for do not have such language to protect those of us further down the food chain.

All this stuff is why I have tried (with no success) to get all my relatives to leave me out of their wills. There are a lot family assets coming my way at some point.....and I just worry about being a target.

Of course, even without engineering you've got the same worries when it comes to car wrecks, etc.

 

[cvg]

when an attorney files a claim, they have no idea who is insured or not or who has deep pockets. so they will name every individual and corporation they can on the initial complaint and add any more they find during discovery. they can even serve your spouse. They will use the old adage "just throw it at the wall and see what sticks".

 

[XR250]

@WArose,

Does that mean you do not carry insurance?

 

[WARose]

@WArose,

Does that mean you do not carry insurance?

Yes, I carry it. Some of my clients require I carry I certain amount. But I'd be surprised if (in the case of a disaster) the amount would be that or less. That's where the indemnification clause in the operating agreement of my company might come in handy.

I know some people who run engineering LLCs/INCs that carry no E&O insurance. They feel it just makes them a target.

 

[Forensic74]

I'm no attorney, but isn't an indemnification clause only preventing your employer from suing you? The contractual relationship between an employee and employer means little to the party initiating the suit.

 

[WARose]

I'm no attorney, but isn't an indemnification clause only preventing your employer from suing you? The contractual relationship between an employee and employer means little to the party initiating the suit.

Nothing will protect you from being named as a co-defendant in a lawsuit. But an employer (or anyone else) indemnifying you from losses (totally) means the judgement would be their responsibility.

 

[havesealwilltravel]

Don't assume that just because your employer is insured, that you are insured.

If a project ends up in litigation, the injured party AND your employer can sue you for damages. It has happened.

ALWAYS get an indemnify, defend and hold blameless agreement with your employer. And, make sure they have adequate insurance and that it includes you.

If you can't get the agreement, DO NOT SEAL DRAWINGS.

Also, remember you are still not protected if you employer goes out of business.

Good Luck

 

[GerryBertier]

ALWAYS get an indemnify, defend and hold blameless agreement with your employer. And, make sure they have adequate insurance and that it includes you.

I'm interested in how many structural engineers have this in place. Haven't heard of it at any of the 4 firms I've worked for.

I've asked to see the firm insurance before, but never an agreement with employees that stamp drawings.

I would definitely be interested in a boilerplate employee agreement. Seems like ASCE/SEA would be all over this if it was the upmost importance to its members.

As a engineer whom mainly stamps my own work, and has had some shorter tenures in my career, long term liability has always been on my radar.

 

[havesealwilltravel]

GerryBertier,

In simple form:

XYZCorporation agrees to hold harmless and indemnify any Professional Engineer from any and all liability, including all cost of defense, arising out of the performance of their professional services performed for XYZCorporation.

I have had these in place with least 4 employers.

I refused to seal any drawings without a similar agreement signed by a corporate officer. It's just too risky.

With this in place, if you make a mistake, your employer cannot sue you and if there is a financial settlement, you won't be wiped out by the settlement or lawyer fees.

 

[Terratek]

How concerned are you really?

So how about it? How much would any of you pay for this non-existent personal E&O coverage even if it did exist?

 

[havesealwilltravel]

Terratek,

I am very concerned and you should be too.

I realize that anyone can make a mistake anytime. Bad things happen to good people.

I don't want to risk my savings in the event something happens. I want all the "insurance" I can get.

Even though the chance of your house burning down is very, very low, I'll bet you have fire insurance on it. Why??? "How concerned are you really?"

In the past, I've seen NEAR disasters on construction projects I was involved with. They would have resulted in massive damage and possibly deaths. The errors weren't my fault, but since I sealed the drawings, I certainly would have been sucked into the resulting litigation. The legal costs of getting the courts to remove me from the lawsuits would have been EXTREMELY costly.

Currently, I'm near retirement. I don't seal anything anymore. They can always find someone else to seal the drawings. (Some engineers seem to think that sealing drawings is some kind of an honor.) I'm still a P.E. and still put my absolute best into my work, but I don't have to worry about liability.

Anyone who takes a risk that they don't have to take should seriously examine their life choices.

 

[Terratek]

Lots of hyperbole. How much would you pay?

Seriously. This entire conversations is useless if nobody would pay for it.

 

[WARose]

How much would you pay?

That's a judgement call everyone has to make (i.e. risks vs. costs).

But if someone is buying their own E&O insurance already....."prior bad acts" is pretty good language to add to the policy. I've worked at several places that had that in their policy.

 

[Terratek]

Unless somebody has a $$$ amount they have considered they'd be willing to pay as an employee (not self employed) then I think this topic is mental masturbation, not a real concern.

 

[WARose]

Unless somebody has a $$$ amount they have considered they'd be willing to pay as an employee (not self employed) then I think this topic is mental masturbation, not a real concern.

There may be someone who fits that bill (you never know). And in any case, it turned into a topic of general liability, so I don't see what harm it does. Lawyers give seminars on this all the time. In my case, I'm sharing what I have learned from my own attorney (for free).