Phoenix contact terminals blocks

[skorp]

Hello all,

For a few years my company has been using the screwtype terminals on all the equipment we use. Our equipment gets shipped all over the world to different rigs and suffers lots of vibration enroute. Well we seem to always be having problems traced to wires that came loose.

I am trying Phoenix contact's Clipline terminals, and I am loving them. They have a nice layout, easy to jumper, and have the springer type terminal which really holds the wires in. But I have come to a lot of opposition with some of our people, which I think is mainly motivated by polictics.

I have only seen a few threads about screw vs spring and they seem a few years old.

So what have some of you experienced and does the Clipline product deliver? Phoenix seems to me a very good company and we use a lot of their products already.

 

[mcgyvr]

we use lots of screwtype terminals also.. and I would NOT use them for any areas that see more than your typical office vibrations. They DO need to be retightened.. I seem to remember one vendor suggesting yearly retightening. The spring type connectors are a better choice for higher vibration environments IMO. But we too have had many customers who have hated the spring lock for no good reasons other than it just hasn't been around enough and they just haven't seen them that often. Our picky customers only want barrier strip type connectors (typically black with barriers that use ring/fork terminals under a screw). Phoenix is a great company.. but not the most cost effective. You pay for the bigger name. We used them for years and have just switched to others in the past 3 years.. (We use mostly Sauro blocks now)

 

[Noway2]

Other block manufacturers that I have used include On Shore Technology and Wiedmuller, both of which make good products are more competitive pricing.

With regards to vibration issues, Wago claims specialty in making cage/spring clamp blocks for high vibration environments. According to the salesman I last spoke with, the connectors were developed for a large diesel engine application where the screw type was failing. From what I recall, their connector makes a non wire breaking type crimp that grips the wire very forcefully and they are near impossible to pull out without releasing the clamp. They are not, however, the least expensive.

 

[skorp]

Thanks for the reply, generally we are sticking with phoenix is that they have the Class 1 div 2 and ATEX certifications for their equipment and their documentation has been excellent so far.

Almost all of our equipment is used in high vibration areas.

Another issue I like with their line is the way I can bridge and configure layouts. I refuse to put more than one wire in a terminal, as I have seen it done so many times, and it causes more problems. Also I like how some of the blocks will use the Din-rail to tie to earth ground, so I don't have to have so many ground wires jumpered.

I am not the one that works on the equipment in the field. So my goal is to keep it simple and laidout in a way that a new technician with no experience or pretending to know something can see a more intuitive layout. I not worried about spending more on parts if the downtime of our equipment is reduced. We lose more money when we are not operating than on replacement parts.

 

[djs]

One issue I have had in the past with spring type terminal blocks is that sometimes they will not release the wire. When this happens, you have to destroy the block to get the wire out.

 

[jraef]

I have been in and out of that debate over the years and have taken both sides, here's my perspective.

My first exposure was to the Wago system. I loved it for my shop assembly process because my wiremen could zip through a panel assembly in about 1/3 the time. Once in the field though, I absolutely hated it! I never had the right tool to remove a wire that needed to be changed or for troubleshooting a circuit. When desperate, I used a screwdriver to release the springs and ended up damaging the block, the wire or in most cases both. That push-in spring clip would create a barb on the conductors and that barb would often grip the edges of the clip even when the clip was open. In a few instances I ended up shortening the wire too much because I had to remove the damaged ends, which made matters even worse. I was doing a large project for Boeing, they witnessed the entire fiasco and subsequently banned Wago terminal blocks for years.

Since then, I have learned that there are two types of spring loaded terminal systems: the "push-in" style that Wago sold me (they actually offer both, the salesman didn't mention that) and the type where you use a tool (i.e. screw driver) to open the block before inserting the wire, then when you remove it the spring clip holds it. This is the type Phoenix is promoting (although like Wago, they too have both). Incidentally, Phoenix and Siemens developed their systems jointly, you can buy them from either one. It was when using the Siemens spring clamp terminals that I changed my mind on them. The type where you open the terminal first then it springs to clamp when you remove the tool is far far superior to what I experienced the first time. They do not damage the wire, they do not vibrate loose. The fact that a standard narrow screwdriver is the basic tool also makes it very convenient for field work.

I think now that much of the resistance to the technology comes from people, like me, who experienced those earlier versions that were way more trouble than they were worth. I found that a simple demonstration was usually sufficient to change the minds of most reasonable engineers.

But we all know that some engineers are not always reasonable. Emotions play a big part and one bad experience can create a lifetime of objection. Good luck with that.


"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> faq731-376

 

[itsmoked]

I use only spring blocks and like them. They do often require a really small screw driver to operate them. In those cases I ship an appropriate screw driver in the enclosure.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[ScottyUK]

They are great for one-off assembly. They are really good on solid-core conductors. Stranded conductors end up being a mess which won't re-insert cleanly and has to be cut and stripped before it can be re-inserted. That can quickly use up any spare if the core is one which the techs regularly remove for calibration work. All the field techs I know hate them.

I must admit that for high vibration areas I can see the advanatges, although I don't think they are as good as Weidmuller's RSF series of spring-loaded terminals designed for use with a lipped blade. We use them a lot on CT circuits where loose terminals can quickly become a dangerous situation. RSF's are much more expensive than the cage clamp type though.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[skorp]

I am already using them on stranded wire, and they hold better than the screw terminals so far. I just got my new ferrel crimper set in yesterday (love my new toys) so I am hoping for a neat and better hold. With our equipment, we rather take the time to make it neater and hold together better. If a field tech says its to takes too long to put it together, its because he probably has no clue how to troubleshoot because he pulled out the wrong wires and is in too much of a hurry to do it right. Already see it happen with people. Can tell with the old screw terminals when you see strands of wire touching the next terminal over that they didn't bother to clean the end of the wire up.

As for wire that is constantly removed, wire is cheap, it can always be replaced. Now the parts that get shorted because of control wiring messed up, that is costly.

sorry for the rambling. Waking up and trying to get caffiene in my body for another day of fixing stuff for people.

 

[zappedagain]

"Stranded conductors end up being a mess which won't re-insert cleanly and has to be cut and stripped before it can be re-inserted."

Ferrules are your friend. I really like the parts from American Electrical Inc for medium/small stuff so I'll give them a plug here.

John D

 

[jraef]

Ferrule? Ferrules? We don' need no stinkin' ferrules. Why, back in the day, we had a solder pot cooking all the time and we would dip the wire ends into it before terminating.

I still have the scars to prove it...


"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> faq731-376

 

[ScottyUK]

Hmm, do Phoenix recommend the use of ferrules? Wago's rep told us that ferrules were not acceptable because they prevented the hard spring steel element from biting into the soft copper and making a proper connection. She seemed to know what she was talking about.

"As for wire that is constantly removed, wire is cheap...". Within a panel I accept that it's fairly cheap, although the downtime incurred by replacing it possibly isn't. If the 'wire' in question is at the the end of a few hundred yards of armoured cable taking an awkward route through the plant then replacing it definitely ain't cheap.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[skorp]

The product line we are trying out will accept ferrules or bare wire. And their holding strength was amazing. I inserted the ferrule in and try to pull it out, and I could not. Right now that is a big thing for us, but we need to see how vibration and use over time affects it.


Oh I understand the armored cable, generally we run it through a junction box and keep it hooked up to terminals and just break the internal control wiring for troubleshooting. But I guess it all depends on the application and if there is room for junctions.