Physics First?

[ACtrafficengr]

I posted this in the Civil Engr. forum, and a replier suggested that it migyht be relavent for all fields. Hence, I am reposting it here. Sorry about the duplicative bandwidth.


A physics First conference was held recently at Cornell, discussing the benefits of making Physics a 9th grade class in the US, rather than 11th or 12th. See

http://members.aol.com/physicsfirst/

and

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/03/7.24.03/Physics_First.html

for discussion of results from high schools that have tried it.

What do you think the benefits would be to our professions?

I think a lot of students get burned out on science during junior year chemistry, and never take Physics. Yet Physics has a lot more relevance, I think, to everyday life. The average car driver needs to know more about inertia than fuel-air stoichiometry. Could Physics First lead to better drivers?

Closer to home, could it increase/retain interest among high school students in science and engineering as careers? I think it may, simply because it would help show the relevance of the sciences to their lives. Also, since Newtonian Physics can be seen and felt and heard, it could be a better introduction to science than chemistry or geology or perhaps even biology.

Any other thoughts?

 

[TheTick]

I agree. In my school chem was 11th grade and physics was 12th. I skipped chem and went right into physics, freeing me up to take more senior electives that required concurrent physics enrollment.

As the saying goes, "Biology is the daughter of chemistry. Chemistry is the son of physics. Physics is the bastard child of mathematics." Most schools put these courses in the order reverse from this, which hamstrings many students' understanding of science in general.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

 

[electricpete]

It is good logic.

One thing to consider is that physics works best with a strong math background. Algebra - definitely. Geometry - definitly. Pre-calc - nice to have.

In contrast to my memory biology and chem dealt more in terms and concepts, less in math.

The existing sequence saves the most math-intensive course for the time when the student has taken the most math courses.

 

[TheTick]

Perhaps introducing physics earlier, at a more rudimentary level, will help students see where math applies in "real life".

The physics issue also shines a light on the dismal state of "math literacy" here in the U.S.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

 

[Maui]

I can sum up the content of most high school physics courses with the following phrase: F = ma, and you can't push a rope. The normal science sequence in high school includes in order biology, chemistry, and physics. I think that for students who are up to the challenge, a sophmore level physics class would be beneficial. Ninth grade may be a little too early in the rotation for most students. And I believe that it's difficult to get students excited about physics, which is one of the reasons why they shy away from it. If a teacher can find a way to present the material that makes it less intimidating and more appealing, then you will see students excel.

To answer the question in your original post, I believe that a solid foundation in the laws of physics will certainly make you a better engineer, because it will impart understanding on a deeper level than engineering itself.


Maui

 

[TheTick]

I was lucky to go to a really good high school. We covered a lot of basic physics in 9th grade. This included experiments like calculating horsepower generated by students running up a flight of stairs (one guy even topped the 1 HP mark!) and calculating how much fuel was needed to raise the temperature of a beaker of water to a certain point.

I think students are more receptive to physics if it's called something else. The word "physics" has a certain intimidation factor.

Good and evil: wrap them up and disguise it as people.

 

[pablo02]

I don't know about most high school physics courses as mentioned by maui -- my son took physics as Jr. and believe me, I had a hard time helping him out -- they covered stuff that didn't exist when I went to HS and stretched my memory for my college class (I should mention he took AP physics and got full college credit for it) -- he also took AP calc as a Jr and it was needed for his physics class;

my daughter on the other hand planned on a nursing career and although not taking physics would hurt her scholarship efforts, I could not in all consciousness recommend that she take it -- it had no bearing on her career choice and I think it would have demopralized her even more than the poor teachers she had in her other classes, which were pretty bad...

I personally think that more effort needs to be on the lower grades including middle school in exposing students to the sciences including physics... not so much in the nitty gritty, but a good foundation on how science is involved in all of the activities around us -- the same includes math -- my wife is an avid quilter, but can't add fractions for figuring total quantity of material needed (was sick an extensive period during that time frame, missed alot of school, and no one spent anytime with her indicating the need to know this in everyday life... and it has affected her self esteem)

 

[rhodie]

Science is validated by physics. Science, in many ways, begats art.

Kids begin to learn art in preschool, but wait until college to learn physics? I wholeheartedly agree with the poster's question: Why start at the top and work our way down?

Give kids physics from the earliest age they can conceptulize theory. Society at large will benefit.

 

[cbiber]

I think an integrated math/physics class -- called something else -- would make sense. Algebra by itself is mind-numbingly boring. Use it to answer questions, and you can see it for the tool that it is.

Amazingly, it took me until **grad school** to realize this relationship!! And only then did I pay enough attention to the math to become comfortable in its "language". I think if we approached high school subjects like this, fewer students would get turned off by it, and maybe a lot more would get turned on.

Radical approach, I know!

 

[Dryver]

I think one problem with making physics a 9th grade class is the difference in math backgrounds that students have. At my highschool most students were taking either algebra or pre-algebra in 9th grade, while others were taking everything from geometry to pre-calc. Schools need to be able to offer a wider variety of science classes so that students can get what they need. I went into college having only taken a very basic algebra based physics class because that is the only class that was offered. I agree that physics should be taken earlier, but there also needs to be more aimed at those students who plan on studying it and using it in the future.

J.G

 

[flyte]

My HS offered a combination Physics and Chemistry for 9th grade, Bio for 10th, Chemistry for 11th, then both Advanced Bio and Physics (two full-year courses) for 12th. I think that was a good way to do it, as not everyone took the senior year courses, but everyone did take the 9th grade class.

 

[brad]

We had pre-physics/pre-chem as 9th graders (for students in the college-bound curriculum). I think the early exposure to rudimentary physics concepts whet our appetites for the real thing as juniors/seniors. I do agree that physics is far more relevant to everyday life than biology or chemistry. I think it gets a bad rap--everybody is afraid that they'll tackle relativity in the first week, and doesn't often appreciate that Newtonian physics is much easier to digest.
Brad

 

[HamishMcTavish]

Hello all,

Could someone translate for me please? What ages do the various references to grades in high school correspond to?

Many thanks, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[Dryver]

HamishMcTavish,

These are the relative ages of the grades, sometimes there will be older and younger students, depending on when they started school.

9th grade (Freshman) - 14 to 15 years old
10th grade (Sophomore) - 15 to 16 years old
11th grade (Junior) - 16 to 17 years old
12th grade (Senior) - 17 to 18 years old

Hope this helps,

J.G

 

[jproj]

My high school offered either physics or advanced placement chemistry (which one could receive college credit for) as senior year classes .... although I would have liked to have taken physics, I took chemistry and am glad I did.... I got more than enough of physics in college! I think I would die a happy man if I never saw another magnetic or electrical field problem! Although I do think it is helpful for understanding why things behave the way they do, I believe one must have the mathmatecal education to full appreciate what physics has to offer. Now combining math an physics... there's a class I would have loved to take! Math classes in college are normally taught independant of any engineering (or other relavent discipline).... and as a result, I had no idea why anyone (other than a mathmatician) would want to find the derivative or integral of an equation until I took physics. I also had a similar experience with laplace transforms (found out I actually needed that stuff in my process controlls class).

jproj

 

[funnelguy]

Almost 30 years ago I was a student in a *pre-engineering* course offered by a vocational school. Students got their science, math, language arts and electives at their home school. The vocational school provided instruction in engineering fundamentals (of sorts), english, history, economics, etc. The sophmore year was spent with one quarter in each of the three disciplines (mechanical, civil and electrical). The fourth quarter and next two years were spent in our chosen discipline.

The civil engineering instructor had a class of 10th grade students doing freebody diagrams for bridge trusses and solving for the loads in each element. Those students whose math skills were lacking were given the required skills by the instructor.

Electrical engineering had us learning basic circuits, resistance, Kirchov's rules, etc. ( I still believe electrons to be evil )

Mechanical coursework involved learning drafting skills, basic machine shop practice, some metallurgy and some basic machine design.

I still marvel at the work we tackled. The program died from lack of enrollment. The home school counselors were reluctant to send their best students to a *vocational* school. My own counselor had almost no knowledge of the program and was unaware of my choices until my senior year. Parents beware!!

Math and science were still tedious, but at least I could see the need and application. We were doing things in 10th grade that I wouldn't see again until Statics, Basic Circuits and Materials 101 in college. Are any of these programs available today?