Pilot Experience as an Engineer 10

[stkyle]

I am an aeronautical engineering senior interested in flight testing and aerodynamics, and I am currently applying for a commission in the air force. Originally it was my plan to be a non-rated developmental engineer, but my recruiter mentioned a large need for pilots this year, so I am considering going for a rating. I am healthy and very good in simulators, but I would require corrective eye surgery. I have always been interested in flying and fully intend to get a private license if nothing else. My question is, should I become a pilot if my ultimate goal is working as an engineer? Obviously I won't be doing any engineering work the first few years (commitment of four years) but I feel that being in the pilots seat for a few years is the best way to evaluate design applications and requirements. Similar to the difference between looking at some car specs and actually driving the car. On the other hand, I definately do not want to be a career pilot.

I expect the career path would look something like this:

~4 years pilot ---> 1 year getting masters ---> x years as AF engineer or test pilot ---> civilian engineer

Of course that all depends on what the air force needs. Is this realistic? I'm afraid I am biased by the romance of being a pilot so some outside opinions would be greatly appreciated.

The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

 

[rerig]

In the Air Force, pilots fly. That is their job. They might have a collateral job as Squadron Maintenance Officer or such, but that is to get their tickets punched to become the Commanding Officer and higher.
Also, verify the eye correction thing. It could restrict the type of flying you could do (in the Air Force)
Air Force Engineer or Test Pilot...two very different fields.
The vast majority of actual Test Pilot flying is done at the manufacturer. Most people confuse Test Pilot with Post Maintetance Check Flight Pilot, because that is what they like to call themselves. "I'm a Test Pilot" vs "I'm a Post Maintenance Check Flight Pilot", which sound Cooler!

Carefully check it out. As far as Recruters...Trust, but verify.

Rerig
Retired Navy.

 

[CastMetal]

As far as engineering goes, a maintenance officer would gain more relevant experience than a pilot. No better way to learn whats good and bad design than seeing everything that goes wrong. A pilot won't see much more than the cockpit.

Comprehension is not understanding. Understanding is not wisdom. And it is wisdom that gives us the ability to apply what we know, to our real world situations

 

[JohnRBaker]

While I can't comment on being a pilot or an aeronautical engineer, since I'm neither, I guess I can make the analogy with respect to something which I can relate to. Many of our customers are automotive OEM's or they are major suppliers to the industry, and I suspect that if they found out that I had never driven nor attempted to tinker with a car before, that despite my 40+ years experience as a Mechanical Engineer, in their eyes, my credibility would suffer.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure that many of the people who hold aeronautical degrees and/or who work with clients in the aerospace industry are NOT pilots and they are still able to do their jobs effectively and satisfy their customers (after all, we also have many aerospace customers which I have to deal with). That being said, I also suspect that those who ARE experienced pilots DO manage to leverage that to their personal and professional advantage.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[KENAT]

I don't think I met any 'design engineers' that were ex air-force pilots - or even ex air force engineering officers or senior techs. Most of the ex airforce folks I met were in management of one kind or another - often project/program management or on the trials/test side of things.

However, most, if not all, of the serious test pilots I spoke to seemed to have engineering degrees.

When I was your age I had the dream of flying aircraft with the RAF for a few years then designing them. With hindsight I'm not sure how realistic that was these days, given how complex they are and how rusty your engineering degree may get in the years you aren't really using it.

I'll have to disagree a bit with cast metal, sure a maintenance engineer will learn a lot as relates to designing for maintenance, but in terms of end function, well the pilot may learn a bit more of that. The primary role of the aircraft isn't to be easy to maintain - though that is a very important consideration.

As to Johns point, well relatively few folks get to be pro pilots, and even fewer of them then return to start an engineering career pretty much from scratch.

Conceptually your idea sounds reasonably and is appealing, however I suspect it may be trickier in practice.

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[xnuke]

After serving in the military and then working as an engineer in the civilian world, I've come up with a fairly standard statement that I tell my undergraduate students when they ask me about military service after getting an engineering degree:

If you want to be a design engineer, don't go into the military, go to work for a design firm. If you are interested in project engineering/project management, or operations or maintenance engineering positions as a career, service in the military is fine.

While you are spending your time as a military pilot/operations/maintenance engineer and forgetting much of what you learned in your engineering education, your peers that went into design are gaining valuable design experience.



xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[IRstuff]

Yeah, I don't have that relevant experience bit either; I've never had the opportunity to fire Hellfires at anyone or anything...

TTFN

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Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[stkyle]

Thanks all for your input, it's a greater (and much faster) turnout than I expected.

I am aware military engineers are not involved in design, and that's fine. My first plan (before becoming muddled by Tom Cruise) is to get the defense side of the process and use that as a springboard into a competitive civilian engineering career. Also, I'm not decided yet, I just started the military application first as it is the most extensive.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the first to think of using pilot experience to increase engineering insight. From your responses, however, it seems unrealistic at best. Like becoming a pro-racer in order to design cars... not likely. I'll do some additional research, but until then I'll just consider it a fantasy.

I want to design my shiny metal suit, and then I want to use it to kick some bad guy butt. Preferably with a quirky robotic butler.

The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

 

[bigTomHanks]

If the opportunity to serve as a pilot in the military is there then I strongly suggest that you take it. Yes, it will alter your career path away from design but if you have the personality that wants to be in the military, I'm going to say that you probably wouldn't be content for very long doing civilian design work. After college I was interested in joining the Air Force and went through all the applications to goto officer school but wasn't selected. Turns out that the Air Force has no problem filling their ranks with service academy and enlist to officer people. That is why I say if the opportunity is there then take it. I ended up joining the Army enlisted and becoming a tank gunner. The experience was life changing, served time in Iraq during the troop surge fighting bad guys in their neighborhood. When I got out the economy was in the drain but my engineering/military experience helped me land decent jobs until I finally got the job I wanted. I say definately go for it because if you only do one term in the military you can easily pick up your career. If you decide you want to do design you can always get your masters after military so you wouldn't have a problem convincing people that your skills are still fresh.

 

[bacon4life]

Seconding the trust but verify sentiment, be sure get a realistic estimate of making it into the flight program, and then all the way through three different flight schools. You will be competing against others who have dreams of being career pilots instead of using it as a stepping stone. Also check whether each school would increase your AF commitment to more than 4 years; I vaguely remember hearing that time at the multi-engine school and the cargo or fighter school does not count towards the 4 years. Even if you don't end up flying, the AF can open up a world of other opportunities.

 

[debodine]

I would recommend against the military for an entirely different reason. But so that you will understand my point, some background.

I spent 20 years and 10 months in the US Air Force as enlisted maintenance on aircraft and loved almost every minute of it. (There were a few times in basic training I had to police cigarette butts and I have never smoked...those particulat minutes are about the only part of my career I didn't like).

My wife was also US Air Force until I got her pregnant. In the early '70's that was an allowable reason to leave the service. Took me three years though, I am a slow learner. )

My daughter spent six years in the Air National Guard. My youngest son spent five years in the US Marine Corps. (No he was NOT a disppointment to his aerospace family...he was in Marine Aviation!) He spent nine months in Afghanistan and came home safe and healthy, thank God.

I tell you all this so you will understand I love the US military, especially the grand people who serve. God bless every one of them. I have some harsh words that some may take as a slam against those who serve. If you believe I am saying that, please re-read my post again and try to see my side of it. My beef is not and never will be with those who serve.

I no longer recommend the US military to anyone as a career. During the last fifteen years or so I have watched an extremely disturbing trend of our civilian leadership (and yes I fully support the Constitutional requirement that our military report to and remain servant to our civilian leadership) to waste the lives of our best and brightest on da** fool missions with no strategy that benefits the US and dumba** tactical requirements that guarantee unnecessary danger to our military people.

Therefore if my grandchildren ask, given the current trend of our civilian leadership, I will recommend no...as I will recommend to anyone else who asks.

I realize my post is not strictly engineering related, but it does relate to the OP. I remember reading of the hopes and dreams of those Navy Seals who just died for the chance to serve. I just want to make sure stklye (the OP) remembers that choosing the military as a stepping stone has many wonderful benefits (teaching me as a 17 year old to get my head removed from my nether regions and learn to discipline myself to achieve a goal was defintely a PLUS) but he cannot look at the military as a stepping stone without properly balancing the hazards.

To end this on a lighter note, I have always liked the silly saying that if you are going to be enlisted in the military, join the Air Force. The reason is that for the most part in all the other services the enlisted people fight right along side their officers. In the Air Force, except for a few specialties that were enlisted flying positions, we enlisted folks waved goodbye from the relative safety of the base while the officers flew off to fight!

 

[IRstuff]

Nonetheless, not everything that the country does should be couched only in the light of benefits to the US. We ostensibly fight on the side of "right" and while we may need to pick and choose our fights because of resource limits or because the fights are unwinnable, fighting for freedom and against oppression should still count for something, regardless of whether there's an actual benefit to the US.

Who will come to our aid, when we're the 3rd world country beset by Colombian and Mexican drug lords and their minions? Will the rest of the world turn a blind eye because there's no benefit for them?

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[debodine]

IRstuff:

As I noted, my post was not strictly engineering related except as it touched the OP's decision making, and thus it would not be wise for me to continue this particular discussion of the political arena. I only brought it up to provide background for my recommendation.

Allow me to say I certainly see your view point and respect you for it, just as I also respect you for the many excellent engineering posts of yours that I have read on this forum...and I have been reading this forum for several years.

I think you and I would have a rousing and delightful political discussion in another more suitable forum and probably find we are far more in agreement than we realize. )

Best regards to you...

 

[stkyle]

I appreciate what you're saying debodine, but while I don't always agree with the government, I don't think that's grounds enough to prevent serving. A large part of why I want to join is to help prevent useless losses that come from bad decisions such as putting a lumbering, unarmed chinook into combat zones. I loved that last line though, that's pretty funny.

Although it might not be the best use of my time, strictly in terms of engineering experience, I think being a pilot would benefit me in many other ways and is worth looking into. I've also posted on military.com forums to see if it's even possible for a pilot to become an engineer.

Although I'm sure it upsets some people, personally, I always enjoy watching a forum evolve into other discussions. Keeps things interesting

I also want to say that the amount of respect I see in these forums is a league apart from the rest of the internet, and I'm glad I can be a part of it.

The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Although I'm sure it upsets some people, personally, I always enjoy watching a forum evolve into other discussions. Keeps things interesting

If you think we're having fun here, you should come over to the 'Engineering Language/Grammar Skills Forum' where we've got a thread up to over 100 responses dealing with the subject of whether you single- or double-space at the end of a sentence. And in that same forum we have another thread with 50 responses concerning whether lavatory signs should read 'MENS' or simply 'MEN'. And I hate to think of what's going to happen with the latest thread which was started this morning on the proper use of 'Adjectives'.

And we're mostly engineers here ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.com/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[IRstuff]

Debodine: likewise. Obviously, we agree that many, if not all, of the military adventures we've had were certainly quagmires of one kind or another.

stkyle: As a general rule, your piloting experience would only be applicable in a few arenas, aircraft design, and systems engineering. However, most aircraft design companies have full-time pilots already, so there's that, plus, there are always lots of ex-pilots.

The systems engineering aspect would be for defense and aerospace companies looking for people who have experience in combat systems and contacts in the military procurement. Most of the ex-pilots aren't hired specifically to do engineering design, but they do participate in conceptual design. I usually run into ex-pilots in our company doing essentially marketing and business development. If there are ex-pilots doing engineering, they are not necessarily identified as such, but, my particular division is primarily sensor oriented, so piloting experience is not terribly applicable.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[rerig]

Stkyle

You have missed the point.
If you join the Air Force to become a pilot, you will become a pilot. You will plan, fly, debrief, eat, sleep and dream flying.
Until you have Stars on your shoulder, you won't have any say in what the Air Force flies. (20+ years)
You will be a "Butter Bar" (2nd Lt) and say "Yes Sir" a lot!

Once you have raised your right hand to protect and defend your country, you belong to The Air Force and it really doesn't matter what YOU want to do. They can't kill you, but they can make you wish you were dead!

DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR MISTER! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!

My advice is: become an engineer and learn to fly on your own.

No, you can't fly a C-17 as a civilian, but as a "Butter Bar", how are your coffee fetching skills. And as you mentioned your vision...only 20/20 get to fly fighters. And once a pilot, forget spending time as an Engineer. Then you owe them 6 years minimum. Plus Reservist time.

This isn't about being a Patriot. This is about the Military telling you what you are going to do with your life. What if you only qualify as a Helo Driver. (Not sure if the Air Force has Helos)

"But that's isn't what I want to do!"
"Too bad, the Air Force needs you there!"

But if you want to be a pilot, Go Air Force.
(Navy...see attachment. Landing on a moving target)

Rerig
US Navy Retired
Daughter - 10 years Air Force

 

[rerig]

Oh by the way... they do it at night also.
See attachment.

Rerig

 

[IRstuff]

Spent time working on a landing aid for carriers. It's a b!tch; the deck can heave 8 ft a few times during the approach pattern, so it can be an exciting event.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[rmw]

stkyle,

I recommend a book titled "Rogue Warrior" to you. It is about Richard Marchinco the man who created Seal Team 6 which is so much in the news lately.

I am recommending it to you not so much for the Seals and their exploits part of it but for the Bravo Sierra he had to put up with as part of military life, and how he as a rugged individualist survived (and ultimately didn't survive) and even thrived in that culture.

It will give you a good view of Service Academy grads vs. non "ring draggers" and the relative position of each in the 'pecking order' along with the butt kissing, etc that goes along with it.

To all you former USN or USMC and/or former Seals, I am not making any comparison between the Seals program and the USAF; frankly there is none. I am trying to give stkyle something to read that will give him an inkling of what rerig stated above. When you join the military, anyone and I mean anyone with half a stripe more than you have OWNS you.

It isn't like there isn't some of the same in the corporate world, but it is totally different in the military.

rmw