Pilot Experience as an Engineer 10

[stkyle]

I am an aeronautical engineering senior interested in flight testing and aerodynamics, and I am currently applying for a commission in the air force. Originally it was my plan to be a non-rated developmental engineer, but my recruiter mentioned a large need for pilots this year, so I am considering going for a rating. I am healthy and very good in simulators, but I would require corrective eye surgery. I have always been interested in flying and fully intend to get a private license if nothing else. My question is, should I become a pilot if my ultimate goal is working as an engineer? Obviously I won't be doing any engineering work the first few years (commitment of four years) but I feel that being in the pilots seat for a few years is the best way to evaluate design applications and requirements. Similar to the difference between looking at some car specs and actually driving the car. On the other hand, I definately do not want to be a career pilot.

I expect the career path would look something like this:

~4 years pilot ---> 1 year getting masters ---> x years as AF engineer or test pilot ---> civilian engineer

Of course that all depends on what the air force needs. Is this realistic? I'm afraid I am biased by the romance of being a pilot so some outside opinions would be greatly appreciated.

The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Go fly - I tried but it was just after Viet Nam and they had too may pilots. Maybe just a macho thing - but it will never hurt!!

 

[thruthefence]

I work for a construction company, roads, bridges, that sort of construction, and one of the Civil Engineers in the company is typed in the Jet, and occasionally flys the recip twins & helicopter. We have a full time chief pilot, but the Engineer sits right seat on any trip he goes on for his regular job. I've never seen him fly captain by himself, however. Occasionally he'll fly left seat with the chief pilot as co pilot to preserve his currency. I think he's ex military, corp of engineers.

 

[KENAT]

"a lumbering, unarmed chinook into combat zones"

Um, well, given the hot & high conditions and the likely configuration of the chopper, you may not be correct on either point.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[62e]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. I'll try to correct the most significant things.

BLUF: Pursuing a pilot slot is a reasonable course of action based on your stated goals. But you should do more research.

1) The commitment for pilot training will extend beyond your initial commitment. Ask about the commitment.
2) You probably won't be able to be released from flying to get your master's until you have 6-8 years in, and then the number of people that are released is small. Perhaps as small as 2 per year.
3) Once you are a pilot, you wouldn't become an FTE, you would become a test pilot. But isn't that better?
4) Definitely verify the vision thing.
5) "Pilots fly" is correct. However, being a pilot does give you a little more flexibility than some career fields. Example, there are "P62E" slots that are engineering slots that require a rated pilot. "Squadron Mx Officer" is not a collateral job in the USAF and would not be filled by a pilot.
6) "The vast majority of actual test pilot flying is done at the manufacturer". It is true that the early portions of flight test programs are conducted using civilian test pilots. I'm not sure I would say the "vast majority", nor would I say it is done at the manufacturer. Lots of OEMs test at USAF facilities, w/ gov involvement. Also, I would say that the *vast majority* of civilian test pilots are former military test pilots--at least the good ones.
7) "Pilots won't see more than the cockpit". False. You can see as much of the aircraft as you want--its you butt. Good pilots know a lot about their aircraft. Mx officers actually don't see much of a/c. They sign a lot of EPRs.
8) "Until you have Stars on your shoulder, you won't have any say in what the Air Force flies". Obviously, the big decisions are made by senior officers, but test pilots (and FTEs) can have a big input into those decisions. And they can have virtually 100% input in small decisions. I've seen many cockpit working groups and DRBs make decisions based on one person's opinion.
9) "Once you have raised your right hand to protect and defend your country, you belong to The Air Force and it really doesn't matter what YOU want to do. They can't kill you, but they can make you wish you were dead!" Obviously, AFPC gets to make the final decisions in your career. But you get a lot more control than the above implies. Also, if you are good, you get more control. I've had 9 jobs and I've picked all of them but 2 (and I've turned one down).

 

[thruthefence]

The OP didn't mention marital status, which must (or should be) be considered.

Lots of women don't do well with the strains of military life.

 

[stkyle]

Yup, I'm well aware of the family strains that military life creates. Part of the reason I am interested in the service is (unfortunately) I do not have any immediate prospects for starting a family.

Thanks for your input 62e, you have verified what I learned from my interview and recruiter.

The interview went very well for those that are interested. The interviewer (a Lt. Col.) asked me to write up some extra information for him and I surprised him by already having it with me. I also did some research before hand and saw that he was awarded a bronze star, so we talked about that for a while too. He was impressed with my enthusiasm and grades/scores and said I was a very competitive candidate. I need to get a physical and take a pilot candidate test and then I'll be submitting my application to the board. In the mean time, I'll be researching and taking some more flight lessons.

Thanks again, everyone, for all the feedback. This thread went much further than I thought it would and was much more helpful than military,com

The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

 

[kontiki99]

I strongly recommend that you get a pilots license. I got a pilots license and an instrument rating after being an A&P and later an Avionics Engineer for years.

I was amazed at how much depth it added to my understanding of what is going on.

There are many successful people working in the business with a complete absence operational knowledge and no exposure to well known rudimentary basics and history outside their area of focus. You can occasionally catch people lacking a broader background BS-ing a bit with oddball anecdotal stories.

You can do well without it too. HR departments at many companies seem to ignore engineering skills in favor of business and soft skill mumbo jumbo when it comes to promotions anyway. Don't expect anyone to kiss your butt for it either.

You may discover, as I did, there is a group of fairly well skilled pilots that know each other and network a bit within you organization already. It's a great group to network with to get a sense of what's really going on too.

There is a shortage of pilots. It's great fun. It will help you put a lot of things in context and you'll be able to simply understand the big picture so much better.

I personally started deriving far more satisfaction out of my job despite the fact that the type of flying I do is not related much to the type of projects I work on. For many people, this line of work it seems to be just a job where people push paper around and meet deadlines. For me, a lot ties in with what I do for fun too. I wish I started sooner.

 

[DarrellThomasNV]

Wow.. This is a must for me to reply. I was in your shoes about 23 years ago. Dare I say exactly--with a twist.

Graduated BSME from University of Florida. I wanted to be a pilot, and actually had to "trade in" my ROTC engineering scholarship to accept the pilot slot. Unfortunately, after graduation, they cut pilot production nearly in half, and I was randomly in the "cut" half. So they sent me off to be an engineer anyway! I did development engineering (62xx was the career field if I remember right). It was good engineering experience and I designed parts that I would eventually fly later as a pilot. In the process there, I got my Masters Degree and the beginning four-years of engineering experience was enough to eventually get my P.E. license. After winning a major command engineering award, I had a chance to tell the ranking guy my story, and how I wanted to fly. Three weeks later I was in flight school, one year later I was flying an F-16, and a year after that I was in combat over Iraq.

With this background, I will offer you the following:

1. Most of 62Es comments above are spot on. There is a lot of mis-info otherwise, so proceed with caution. I.e. the flying commitment is EIGHT YEARS after a year-long flight school.

2. You fly, because you want to fly. Expect to fly a lot. That is if you get through flight school, and all the other rigors--it's not a given. You typically won't have time to get a master's while you are operational. They demand your full attention and then some. If you try to juggle flying/family/masters, expect failure in (at least) one of the three areas. Operational flying is--among other things--a leadership factory. Young men go in, leaders come out three years later. Then they expect you to lead.. or you could go to test pilot school.

3. Lately, if you are at the top of your class, you may still get an unmanned aerial system (UAS). I.e. flying a predator in Afghanistan from the desert in Nevada. This may be a fit for you. In fact, if you let it be known you WANTED this, you'd probably get it. This seems to fit an engineering mind better than other flying jobs.

4. In the F-16 squadron I kept my engineering skills on the down-low. People looked at you funny if you rattled off too much in-detail info. You really have to temper some of the skills you developed to fit the culture, but you learn new skills. "Paralysis by analysis" will no longer exist for you. You will be an expert in risk management. Your quick-math skills will save your life one day, or lack thereof will kill you. I stayed fresh on my own though by getting a second master's degree right before retirement (in a non-flying job), and just lots of tinkering.

5. Evaluate design applications and requirements. You bet. In fact, as a pilot, I got to fly with a piece of equipment I designed as a young engineer. I'm happy to say 20 years, later, the structural fix I put in has had zero failures. As the "user" you have a mysterious sense of credibility when working issues back home.

6. Now the dark side. The flying game will end. As an analogy, it's like a professional sports team... They keep 'em young, and when you get older, you go on to do things like coach, or commentator. When I was one year out from retirement, I prepared a flying resume for the airlines, and an engineering resume as well. Airlines aren't hiring--I expected that. But ah ha! I've got engineering as a back up! I must have sent out 1000 resume's over the course of a year. It wasn't a bad resume: MSAE, BSME, P.E., but the experience--although four years of really good work--was 15 years old. I received exactly one engineering interview, and that was only due to my F-16 experience. When we came to the salary discussion, it was so shockingly low, that I simply could not accept it. I'm afraid if I am going to get back into engineering, I'll have to start my own company or something, because the phone's not ringing off the hook. The good news is that I found an aviation consulting job that quite literally doubled my previous salary, and I only work 6 mo/yr. At this point, I'm happy "tinkering" in my six months off, contributing my engineering to the open-source gang. I still miss "real" engineering, and I send out resumes looking for that perfect fit between aviation and engineering, but I'm not holding my breath. Aviation folks don't care much about masters degrees and P.E.s, Engineering folks don't care much about type ratings, flight hours, or emergency procedures.

Would I do it different? No. But I wanted to be a pilot first, engineer (close) second. It looks like you may have these priorities transposed, which will change your game plan.

BLOB: (bottom line on bottom) If you want to be an engineer, turn down the pilot slot. Be firm with your recruiter. As an engineer they will send you (full pay) to get your ENGINEERING masters among other things. You may design a little, but once you make Captain (if not before) you will be in Engineering Management, managing $million if not $billion contracts. You will see everything. You will develop engineering skills, leadership, and precious contacts in this regard.

If you want to be a pilot--but your heart still tugs to do engineering, then go to pilot training, do well--(and you will do well as long as you don't over-think things) you can get a UAS, or take a jet and try to go to Test Pilot School (TPS). If you get TPS (competitive position after 1000 hours of flight time), they will send you to get an Engineering Master's Degree, then on to Edwards where you will fly every airplane in the inventory, and have a real shot at being an astronaut.

Regardless, the world is yours. Make a decision and go get it.

-Darrell
ret USAF

 

[MacGyverS2000]

LPS for Darrell...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[stkyle]

Thanks a lot Darrell, that's quite a story. I have actually come to a decision since I last posted here. Although flying is absolutely among the top experiences of my life, the only aviation career path I'm really interested in is test piloting (you were spot on) and I decided it was too specialized for me to pursue and risk being stuck in a transport... I still think piloting a transport would be cool... I just don't want a career of it.

So I've taken the next logical step and I'll be pursuing TPS from the other side as a flight test engineer. I'm actually a member of the Society of Flight Test Engineers and I'll be flight testing an SR20 next semester, so I have some high hopes about that. I'll be submitting my Air Force application to the upcoming technical board as well.

I know the TPS board is extremely competitive (one of my references was selected as a secondary) so if anyone has any advice on that, I'd love to hear it.

Finally, as soon as I get the money, I'll definately keep flying. I think I'll enjoy it more as a hobby than as a career anyways



The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Go fly !!

There are bold pilots and old pilots - but NO old, bold pilots.

It is a young man/woman's sport and do it NOW!!!

I regret that it never happened for me and now I am 59