Possible Job offer at end of year in industry vs returning to complete MEng as originally planned 2

[miketurbo]

Hi,

So what I'm really looking for here is some advice with respect to the increased future career progression/job prospects that an MEng can offer vs. jumping on the career ladder now if I was given the opportunity.

Background: Currently completing a year in industry post 3rd year studies [ie. I could graduate with a BEng now] with the original intention to return to University and complete my MEng this September. I have previously contemplated taking a job if the opportunity arose due to the worry in this economic climate with getting a graduate job. The thought has now come even more to the foreground due to recent talks of MEng sponsorship and even more recently the prospect of a job if I was stay on at this job and stop at a BEng. For info, the company is a Fortune 500 company [UK Site], great career prospects etc

There are obviously two big sides to this decision mainly centring around going for a job now with high probability of getting it [good relationship with management, company knowledge etc] vs by not having the masters will this play a negative effect on future employability. I might add, completing the MEng was always my plan but it's hard to not think twice when a potential job offer is on the cards and the whole 'you should take opportunities' presented to you comments. It's a difficult decision which has the potential to create regrets whichever way I go.

I was hoping to hear a few peoples thoughts and comments which may prompt further considerations.

Thanks and sorry for the long post.

 

[KENAT]

I don't know IRstuff, may be a case of 'back in my day' but I'm pretty sure I've seen similar complaints about US schools.

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[miketurbo]

Longinthetooth... a Masters is not compulsory to obtain chartership; it is my understanding that while you are able to use your Masters to demonstrate postgraduate learning as a prerequisite for chartership, without it this has to be demonstrated off your own back on the job.

From my experience [University of Leeds - Russell group UK] I don't feel the course has been dumbed down at all. We do in fact have a lot of practical lab time planned into our timetables including wind tunnels, engine beds, mechatronics etc the only difference I can see is the emphasis on computer labs which now probably outweighs other types of labs.

I kind help but find it patronising to consistently hear of people having a knock at the current generation of young adults trying to make an education for themselves and how it was so much worse 'back in the day'

 

[ScottyUK]

miketurbo,

I wasn't intending to have a go at today's graduates, it was intended as criticism of the system. The young people are a product of the system, and the problem lies with the system. Many of the guys who are retiring, or have retired recently, have forgotten more than I know about electrical machines. They were educated by a better system than I was, and they benefitted from that. I see recent grads - from some top-flight universities - who know less than I did when I graduated from a less prestigious university. Every year the standard drops a little further. It wasn't 'worse' back in the day, it was better. Just harder too.

Without demeaning your course or your achievement in finishing it in any way, I don't think you've been graduated long enough to realise just how much stuff you will never fully understand. It tends to hit you mid-career, once you've been through a few employers and have engaged with a few of the real experts, just how much you don't know.

 

[Longinthetooth]

Well said Scotty.

I dont critisise today's grads either. Like most other people, I got a good gounding in my field, but that's all it was, a grounding. You carry on learning throughout your career. I am still learning to this day, although I am a lot nearer the end of my career than the beginning.

It is just my personal opinion, but I dont see an extra year spent doing a masters contributes anything towards your development as a practicing (i.e. non academic) engineer. This opinion obviously does not hold sway in the corridors of power. So be it.

One area in which I have a great deal of sympathy with todays grads is that they have to amass considerable debt to get their education, whereas I got mine virtualy free. I think the fees nowadays are criminal.

Mike C

 

[miketurbo]

I absolutely haven't being working long enough to appreciate what you have mentioned Scotty and only time will tell. However, this would assume I was not proactive in my own learning and development and instead expect to be spoonfed. Maybe it is more to do with attitudes to learning within society that have contributed to a lower grade of graduate rather than the courses? I'm not sure.

Longinthetooth - the way in which the masters contributes to IMechE accreditation is through the academic side; hence why I mentioned that if a Masters was not persuade you can still become accredited but then on onus falls on you to demonstrate appropriate levels of postgraduate education & learning. As I previously mentioned, I personally would prefer to do this within a postgraduate establishment.

I missed out on the recent increase to £9000/year fees and while this is a lot of money It wouldn't have dissuade me from following the same path as I have done - perhaps it will help to reduce the ridiculously high levels of attendance at universities though.

 

[ScottyUK]

Mike -

One thing you will discover is that the workplace has changed a lot since the old days of nationalised industry. There are few electrical engineers (as distinct from electronic engineers) today who will get a chance to specialise to the extent that their forebears did prior to the 1980s. The reason why many of today's experts are perceived as 'experts' is that they specialised in a fairly narrow field during much of their career. The way companies are structured today means that they prefer to employ a relatively small number of engineers who know a reasonable amount about a wide range of subjects and who can handle the majority of problems, rather than having a few more staff with individual specialisms who between them can deal with pretty much anything. When they need an expert they hire them in as consultants. This business model works until the experts are no longer available because they retire, and grow old, and die. That point is being reached around about now, but big business hasn't quite woken up to this unwelcome news. The sad fact is that British industry has allowed a vast amount of knowledge to seep away in the last thirty years without it being passed on to the next generation, and it is now virtually impossible to repair the situation because of the passage of time means that the skills and knowledge are no longer present in the labour market.

On a more positive note engineering is a great field to work in, and wages are rising as companies steal each other's staff to fill the gaps opening up due to retirement. Today's graduates have far better employment prospects than those of 20 years ago because of the skills shortage, and that is nice to see.

 

[Longinthetooth]

Scotty,

You are right about the shortage. I work in a small office in the north of England. We are part of a multinational engineering contractor. Much of our work is sourced localy and we could take on a lot more if we could get the people to do it. Lots of good new grads around, but we can only train up a small number at ony one time. The experienced people just are not there.
Good job security for me, but a sad comment on the industry, just as you say.

Mike C

 

[loki3000]

but how are the salaries? competitive with germany for example?

 

[KENAT]

Salary without cost of living, taxation structure... and other context is meaningless.

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[ScottyUK]

Competative from which perspective - employer or employee?

 

[Longinthetooth]

I dont know how my company compares to Germany, Certainly we are comparable to all our surrounding area. London rates just boggle the mind, but take away the cost of housing, long expensive commutes etc. and they are probably no better off.
Of course the weather is better down there, which is something.

I have to visit our head office in london, now and again. Recently they rejigged it to get more people in (from another building which they closed). It's like working in a call centre. Long rows of desks with no room sand no privacy at all.
I'll never complain obout our office here again. (Of course, all the managers kept their individual offices!)

Mike C