Practising Engineering in USA States 17

[stanier]

Has the requirement for bieng licensed in a state ever been challenged as being in restraint of free trade?

Does the free trade agreements with Canada, mexico, Australia allow for engineers considered professional in their homelands to work without registration in the state?

I am a consultant working out of Sydney Australia and undertake work all over the world except as yet in the USA. I am primarily engaged by consultants as a sub consultant. Is it possible for me to work on USA projects? It would be a nonsense if I did my work but some other engineer had to sign off on it because he had a license and I didnt. The only relelvance that engineer may have to my speciality is knowing my email address and phone number.

 

[RDK]

I’m finished in this thread.

There ahs been no new ground covered for the past dozen or so posts. So why bother?

Restraint of trade is restraint of trade.

Barriers to entry to the market are barriers to the entry to the market.

These are what free trade agreements are supposed to remove.

If you want the last word the go ahead.

If you ant to consider that you “won” the debate then go ahead.

There is no free trade in engineering services between the US and the other countries of NAFTA. There is free trade between Canada and Mexico in this area.

The irony is that this is costing the US consumer more and they are too blind to see that protectionism costs more than it benefits.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[MrMojito]

I don't think that its unreasonable for RDK to qualify for licensure in the USA via free trade. Canada has a Licensing process that results in qualified professionals much like in the USA. Its true that the educational and licensure processes are different between the 2 nations, but the end result is no different. The way that someone in the USA licensed in one state obtains a license in another via comity (without taking another exam) should be extended to Canadien engineers. If other countries produce equally qualified engineering professionals (at least the UK and Germany if not others), then the comity process (without exam) should be extended to them also.

 

[Ashereng]

I agree.

I also don't think that its unreasonable for RDK to qualify for licensure in the USA.

I don't think NAFTA should (and it doesn't) addresses this issue. Canadian engineers can currently enter via a NAFTA enabled visa to work in the US. They, in some states, just can not call themselves an engineer without a PE.

 

[solid7]

If you ant to consider that you “won” the debate then go ahead.

I think that's fair. Judging by your responses, you believe that you lost, also. Let's see what we have here:

A) No new facts
B) Restatement of the original position - as if you say the same things over and over enough times, people will start to believe it
C) Incessant references to the "spirit" and "intent" of "this and that"
D) Inability to address Rob's well thought out answers, in the same way you expect yours to be addressed

RDK - You're a proud Canadian man, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem for me, in particular, is that I expect you to follow the laws of my state and locality, to the same degree that I, myself have to. (I know I've said it before, but it's my theme) I expect no less when I am in Canada. And yes, I have been to Canada, on business, many times. My last employer, other than myself, was a Canadian company, so I know a bit about Canadian culture and law. We do not have the same rules and regulations, and again, that's OK. We are sovereign nations.

What really needs to happen here, is that some time needs to pass, more people need to get involved, and the process needs to be negotiated through various boards and committees - not dragged through the mud on a forum. Things relating to free trade will get better. (they have to) But these are just birthing pains. Don't be discouraged at this point. Many trade agreements in times past never really fluorished for decades.




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Check out CATBlog!

 

[JoeTank]

For those of you that beleive that the state PE laws are some sort of protectionist ploy, those rules existed long before NAFTA was ever discussed.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Kitson,
I understood the "social PEng" thing. What would concern me would be the salesman or military officer that obtained a PEng and then expected to obtain a PE on the basis of a PEng. Kinda scary to think that there could be an administrative path for a non-practicing engineer to obtain a PE.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Mojito,
The comity process between states is based on both states having essentially equal requirements. Nearly every state that I know of requires wrttien exams. Most give an identical exam too. Comity is extended for PEs licensed by the same process.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[MrMojito]

Steve,

Yes, I agree with you. But in the case of RDK, who is a Canadien PEng, he took his exam in Canada. I don't feel that he should have to take another exam in the USA to get his PE, since Canadien PEngs and US PEs are similar. The same would apply to other nations that produce similarly qualified engineers. Some feel otherwise, but I think that reexamination should be waived.

 

[JoeTank]

I was not aware that the PEng took two eight hours exams like the PEs.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[RDK]

Steve

The vast majority of Canadian Armed Forces military engineers in the officer level are degreed engineers. They work in traditional engineering professions such as construction, operation and maintenance of facilities and infrastructure.

They design and erect temporary facilities such as military operational camps complete with sewage and water treatment systems, they design and build bridges, they design controlled demolition of structures etc.

The best demolition engineer I have ever worked with got started as a military engineer. He designed a demolition charge that split a 200 mm thick concrete wall into a 100 mm wall and a pile of rubble.

Make no mistake they are engineers in every sense of the word and you would deny them professional status simply because they are not legally required to be registered?

Professional engineers as salesmen also still have to be engineers first. They incorporate their products into the final design. They are no different professionally than a senior consultant who spends his time on business development. To even use the term sales engineer in Canada they FIRST have to earn the P.Eng designation. Most of them do it is the same way that everyone else does it, working in a traditional engineering work place before moving into sales.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Kitson,

Good to see that you decided to come back.

I would deny no engineer the priviledge of becoming a PE. We have a few rules to follow. The rules require a certian level of education and experience. Those being met, the engineer is invited to write an exam. It's not exclusive, protectionist or discriminatory. All are invited. I did it as have lots of others.

While in Australia, I applied for chartered status. The only problem I encountered was that I could not produce the original of my college diploma for my BSE degree. It was buried deep in storage back in the US and was unobtainable at that time. I didn't feel bad toward that fine group of Australain engineers in any way that I was unable to complete the process. I would have followed thru on it had I stayed there for a longer period.

Point is, it's just a process to go thru. An engineer that meets the basic requirements can make it thru the system. I know several engineers that had to go to Chicago from other states for a interview (for an IL PE). The did it. It was the rule in effect at that time.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it does not seem unreasonable to meet the minimum requirements of an organization in order to be admitted. Some in this forum have mentioned an analogy to a driver's license. That's so far off the mark, I'm not sure I could even respond.

Regarding the fine Canadian military engineers, I would be proud to have them granted a PE under the same rules that I followed. With regards to the Canadian sales engineer, he too is invited to submit himself to the same process that I have. My club is not exclusive. All qualified candidates are invited to apply.

By the way, I encounter a bunch of Canadian NDE technicians that routinely travel to the Gulf Coast region to work at refineries and chem plants during outages. No problem, just come on down. Yet when I have tried to send inspectors to Canada for similar work they are prevented from doing so unless HUGE amounts of paperwork are provided. Applications are often turned down too. Looks like it goes both ways. I have concluded that we are essentially shut out of the Canadian market, unless there is some other compelling reason.

Whenever I travel to Canada for work purposes, I have to pay $150CD. I'm allowed in, but there is an admission fee. I just pay it every time. It's apparently one of the rules.

Wow, this NAFTA thing really has created some hard feelings. That's too bad. I wish it wasn't so.


Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[RDK]

I’m not addressing the main issue and NAFTA since there is no new information or positions placed here.

I simply came back to this thread to clarify the comments about the ‘social’ registration not being true professional engineers.

They are simply people who are not legally obliged to be professionally registered and have chosen to do so for a wide variety of reasons that I called ‘social’.

There are no doubt many PE’s in jobs that do not require registration and they have chosen to be registered due to ‘social’ reasons. These reasons are to participate in the profession, future job prospects, social status as a professional etc.

This includes any registered engineer working for either federal government or a member of either country’s military.

I spent the first 15 years of my career working for the federal government and was registered for these social reasons. The only thing I did with my stamp during this time was act as a guarantor of passport applications. I was still doing engineering work.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[JoeTank]

Let me ask a basic question here about how a PEng becomes a PE. How is the process the same or different?

Recently, a PE applied for a PEng. He submitted an application, took an exam (nature and scope unknown to me) and is now a PEng too.

How does it work in the other direction?

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[RDK]

The exam is the professional practice exam.

It differs significantly from the FE/PE exams in that it is available any time and simply consists of a series of questions on the profession in general. It only requires you to read the local provincial act and code of ethics and answer questions based on that act which you have in front of you. In many associations it is a take home exam.

The purpose of the exam is to force you to read the provincial act and code of ethics and nothing else. The pass rate is virtually 100% on the first try.

When I took it the questions were also in the same order as the applicable sections of the act. Question 1 dealt with clause 1 question 2 dealt with clause 2 etc and they were simple factual questions. (i,e, What month is the annual general meeting held?)


Many states have similar additional requirements designed to make you familiar with the local act and regulations.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Ashereng]

I took the Ontario professional practice exam in the 80's.

It was a come to this building exam (not take home), and consisted of 2 tests - one on law, and one on ethics (hence we call it the law and ethics exam). It was not technical.

The exam is timed (if memory serves, 2 hours).

They mailed you your pass/fail notice about 2 months later even though it was a computer card (multiple choice).

I realise this is now a new millenia - Rick probably has more up to date information.

 

[JoeTank]

Thank you for the concise info about PEng exams Mr Kitson and Ashereng.That does not seem much different from the Chartered status used in Australia, if memory serves me after 20+ years. At this point I would guess that most PEngs would be faced with writting the state PE exams in order to be licensed in their state. Do you think that PEngs do not feel that they should have to write the state-based PE exam because of the NAFTA agreement provisions or because they are already PEngs in Canada?

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[imagitec]

Steve Braune wrote, "Do you think that PEngs do not feel that they should have to write the state-based PE exam because of the NAFTA agreement provisions or because they are already PEngs in Canada?"

Given the subject, it's important to note that the basic PE exam for each discipline is the same in every US state. It's administered by the same organization, on the same dates. Some states require additional testing. For example, I believe the California strcutrual engineering exam includes supplemental questions related to seismic activity.

Rob

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys -

http://www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

 

[Ashereng]

Steve,

I did not state an opinion on whether a P.Eng should or should not have to write the state PE exams because of "put reason here".

I shared my personal expereinces on the matters of:
- NAFTA doesn't really address licensing of PE/P.Eng
- I don't have an Illinois PE, yet was able to to obtain a work visa to work as an engineer in Illinois
- there are 2 ways to obtain a P.Eng. in Canada

 

[alcap]

you are completely wrong. i work in canada and i see
work from engineers and designers offshore and it is hopelessly useless. Local idiosyncracies Ways and means , corporately , natinoally, even locally by whats understood and available are
huge issues everywhere and represent enormous waste and rework if not understood.

I work globally also and its the sme everywhere. Every compnay i work for, even 50 miles away , wants you right there, in their hands.

communication breakdown is costly and remote working is not realistic in the engineering business , except for a few things.Specialty FEA is a common one but even then the output is generally accepted with blind faith, something not likely to continue and already isnt. Even those guys want you in their "shop"

 

[alcap]

Mr kitson wrote
"if you are a professional engineer in Canada (with sufficient experience) all you should have to do is apply to any US state and you should be issued a license."

wrong.. it doesnt happen except in states with the most lax rules , and those licenses are essentially worthless