Presentation and opinion about a pump offer

[jacilore]

Hello, I am new here, an industrial engineer from Spain.

I am quite new in the field of pumps, but now I am trying to assess a community that need to raise water from a deposit at station level to a channel which is 320 mts. higher, at a 270 m3/hour rate.

The tube a 8" steel one and they have an offer from a dealer to change their old pump for a new RITZ HP-49 high pressure multistage horizontal axis with motor and bedplate included and ready to work. The price is 80.000 €.

My main question is about the worthiness of that offer; from what I have seen from other makers it's quite expensive, but I would like to know that in terms of the maker RITZ itself, as I know it's a prestige one.

At this moment I don't want to try to interfere with the local dealer asking the maker itself, just to receive (if possible) some feedback from people who are familiar with these machines' prices.

Apart from that, in the same installation, they fill the deposit from a well extraction which comes from 120 mts. below, from a submersible pump which is somewhat old, also, and I have discovered that they (RITZ) have a family of high performance submersible pumps, the HDM line.

From what I have struggled to find in internet, it seems that the lowest model in that family (HDM-61) could fit the needs for a straight elevation (440 mts.) without the intermediate deposit which perhaps could be a better solution.

Do any of you have any idea of that machine price and if it could be a possibility to explore?

Sorry for this large first post, but I couldn't do it shorter. Anyway it's the first of several to come; I hope the next ones are lighter.

Regards

 

[MortenA]

Lots of parameters will influence the cost of a pump:

-Capacity
-Head
-Design pressure
-Seal plan
-Driver and driver options

etc.

You could try contacting another vendor? Remeber that a budget quote always is the lower price range. Once the vendor gets a full spec they will find all sorts of reasons why the firm quote will be higher

Best regards

Morten

 

[pumpman50]

Seems a lot of money for the pump duty you are looking for. I would suggest you look on the web under pump suppliers.There are plenty in Spain including Ideal Pumps.A decent supplier will be able to visit your site and discuss the project and recommend a suitable pump and also probably quote for installation. Suggest you look around for a new submersible set too. Ideal Pumps may also be able to help here.

Andy

 

[jacilore]

Hello:

Thanks for your help.

For several reasons I am interested on RITZ pumps, but it seems they don't want to publish too much information.

Anyone knows any way to get some information, although it's approximate?

Regards and thank you again

 

[MortenA]

There are numerous book on the subject and many refernces will give you formlas or nomograms for estimating cost based on performance and design requirements (i think Perry may have one but im not in the offcice today).

Best regrads

Morten

 

[Pumpsonly]

There are many factors that influence the total cost of a pump package such as the make and construction of the motor, coupling type and also baseplate. For the pump capacity and head stated, the motor required will be more that 400kW and would be a medium voltage. If it is a TEFC I believe it would be a major cost of the whole package. The only way is to get another proposal of similar specification for comparison.

 

[vpl]

Anyone knows any way to get some information, although it's approximate?

Google?

http://www.ritz-pumpen.de/en/content_international/content_international.php

Patricia Lougheed

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Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[jacilore]

Google?

http://www.ritz-pumpen.de/en/content_international/content_international.php

Perhaps I wasn't too precise.

I meant that if could find some place where I could see prices of RITZ pumps, although it could be approximate.

On the other hand, some information about RITZ I could find, through google, yes, but much less complete than I could expect from a maker like that, but anyway I am already in contact with their commercials.

Thanks all for your indications, there are things that anyway I should check, indeed.

Regards.

 

[DubMac]

Jacilore,

Have worked for pump manufacturers for 30 years and never heard of ritz pumps. Do they actually manufacture the pump or are they resellers or distributors??

When you approach a pump vendor you should give him a flow (m3/hr) and a head (meters) and do not expect him to calculate these for you; you will be opening yourself up for trouble if you just give them the system layout. You may find if the setup does not work, it will be very hard to find out who is really responsible to fix. They can always blame you for not giving correct system information.

A good, reputable pump vendor should only quote you based upon what his pump does between its flanges. He should be able to advise you on calculating these values but seldom should a quote be made without; Flow required, discharge head required, and suction pressure available (sounds like you have a booster pump supplying the pump).

The 80,000 euros sounds very high to me... an old rule of thumb we used to use in the municipal water industry (very old) was that the pump package should be around $150-200 (USD) per horsepower. That is very crude but it was amazingly close on public type work.

Have you considered looking into a vertical pump?? It may take too much infrastructure to install, but if you have a reservoir deep enough this could save money. A horizontal multistage pump is typically designed for non-water services. The pump you are looking at may in fact be overengineered for your service and that could be why it is so expensive.

 

[jacilore]

Hi Dubmac:

Your answer is very welcome, as it fits my doubts quite well.

Curious about not knowing RITZ, as I thought they were a prestige maker, but I am very new here.
At least I've seen they have the technology to offer quite high performance submersible pumps, as you can see here.

http://www.ritz-pumpen.de/en/frames.php

And also you can see a big one here

http://www.edx.co.za/MiniWebs2010/mw.aspx/ritzpumps

And yes, I think they are makers, but I could be wrong.


The vertical pump you mean with exterior vertical centrifugal motor?.

From what I have seen, the best alternative for my installation could be a vertical submersible pump. And that's why I asked for a high level submersible pumps maker. Do you have any?.

 

[Pumpsonly]

Ritz Pumpen is an established pump maker in Germany specialized in the heavy duty vertical and horizontal multistage pumps.

Other maker you can check out Pleuger pump or just google vertical submersible motor pump. You may not find many that can offer pump to meet the capacity and head of your requirement.

There are a few factors you have to consider for the pumping arrangement.
1)The exiting well diameter may not be able to accommodate the size of the submersible motor require for 1 pump configuration.
2) The power supply.
3) The yield of the tube well.
4) The cost of drilling large and deep tube well.

 

[DubMac]

Jacilore,

Vertical pumps can be of either the submersible type or of the "exterior motor" type, whatever fits you best. Typically submersibles would be used for deeper wells where you don't want a long rotating lineshaft and column from bottom to top.

Never heard of Ritz but thats not to say they may not be well established and reputable; I really only have worked in US.

Pumpsonly mentions Pleuger. They are a very reputable old manufacturer. They are owned by Flowserve Pump Division. You could look them up.

Without knowing more about your setup, it would be hard to really suggest more detail. If you were to contact the Flowserve, Sulzer, KSB, Weir, etc office nearest you , they would be of great help I'm sure.

 

[KiwiMace]

Grundfos also.

 

[racookpe1978]

Are you sure you know what the 80,000 Euro price is quoted for?


That is, did they quote a price for pump, piping, connectors, motor, bedplate and controller and instrumentation - while somebody else's price list is for pump and motor only "delivered on the truck" - not installed, aligned, and instrumented?

 

[ischgl99]

That price does not sound that bad considering the head and volume you will be pumping. The motor on that pump is probably in the 400-500hp range? We priced out a motor of that size a few months ago and it was in the $45,000 range, so that leaves about $75,000 for a multistage pump. We have a quote to replace just the bare pump without motor on a 100hp single stage centrifugal system (higher flow but much lower head then your application) and the pump alone was $45,000. Your price does not sound out of line to me, but the only way to tell is to get quotes from competing companies with the same equipment specs.

 

[jacilore]

Thanks to all again:

I have been busy, so I only been able to read, but not to answer.

Dubmcac: The well deep (120 mts.) seems too much for an external vertical pump, from what I have seen.

Pumpsonly and Kiwimace: Pleuger I hadn't checked, but I know they are prestige, so I will try. Grundfos I checked but their submersible pumps didn't fit my needs.

Racookpe: The 80.000 € are for pump, motor, bedplate and coupling, without installation.

Ischgl99: The problem is to get prices from that maker, as I said. (From KSB, I have got a price of 33.000 for a same capacity kit, at 2.900 rpm.). By the way, do you work for a certain maker? Would you mind to tell?.

Regards to all