Price of shop details 2

[imyoda2]

Hi I am new to this forum, this is my first posting.

I am a senior structural detailer and I am thinking about going out on my own, the problem is I have only been an inhouse detailer for a design/build fabricator, and we have rarely had to shop out the work, the other detailer I work with also has no experience working on his own.

My question is what is the going rate for structural detailing in your area? Please list your country's currency after. (I am located in Canada)

I have heard that 125-150 per imperial ton is typical, but that doesn't factor in more complex work like hip and valley, staircases, retro-fitting existing buildings that rely on accurate field dimensions? I often work on very complex steel projects, not the typical square retail box, (though I am more than capable of doing so). I wish to continue to do complex work as there are so few that do.

What would be more useful is the fair price of work per piece with the tonnage rate as a check.

1. simple steel with standard shear connections
2. complex one off steel (hip and valley)
3. staircases with handrail
4. erection diagrams, anchor bolt layouts, deck layouts
5. miscellaneous (other handrail, door frames, etc.)

and state if your price includes checking which for me is at a one hour of checkng to 4 hours of detailing ratio,(that is if you want to do a good job, easier to fix on paper than on steel)

Also, what about the cost of a PE stamp for connections, they are sometimes required and I would have to shop out that function. Do I simply state in my price quote "plus structural engineering costs"? Do I charge a markup?

thanks, this forum is proving to be quite helpful.

 

[Lutfi]

I am a structural engineer and I used to detail steel many years ago. I used to charge from $150 - $300 (US funds) per sheet depending on the complexity. I used to use many tricks in the old days to become more productive such as the use of sticky backs and sepias (I am not sure if any one in here know what I am talking about).

These days’ things are done by computer CAD software packages. This may have driven the cost up or down depending on the cost of software and its flexibility. In this field you will find your self competing with all kinds of detailers literally all over the world. Shop drawings are being prepared in Canada, India, Indonesia and many other third world countries were labor is very cheap. Fast internet communications made this possible.

I would join the Detailer association and they would have all kinds of lead, standards that will help you. Their web site is:

http://www.nisd.org/

. I would attend the annual steel convention that the AISC sponsors. You just missed these years in Baltimore Maryland. Contact AISC for next years or visit their web site at

http://www.aisc.org

.

I wish you luck on your venture. I am sure you will find many challenges and stiff competition in the business and high demands to deliver. Based on my personal experience, I thought the steel detailing was a sweat shop type business (I do not mean to insult any one who is in the profession). You are always late in getting go ahead, they want to order the steel, plans needs to go to engineer for approval, shop wants to start, erector is breathing down your neck due to small dimensional mistake, the beam is up in the air waiting for repair detail and or engineer approval. Often the detailer does not get the credit he or she deserve when the job goes well and all pieces fit nicely. I think steel detailing can be rewarding if done properly and professionally.

In my capacity as an engineer these days, I appreciate a well done AISC compliant set of shop drawings. It makes my job of checking easier.

Good Luck

P.S. For some odd reason, I always wound up detailing the stairs and hand rails. I liked them and loved the challenge to make them work and fit.

 

[flamby]

You can also go about this in your own rational way. Add your time rate $/per hour you want to earn as well as your partners’. Distribute overheads of office floor, hardware, software, etc. and you will know your cost of operation per hour. Now make a guess based on your experience how much time you will need to make a given drawing sheet. Multiply cost per hour with the hours of work AND don’t forget to add a hefty profit on top of it ;-).

 

[imyoda2]

Thanks for all the advice. Sorry i haven't replied earlier.

I think that $150-300(US) would be considered extremely good in today's market, but i haven't heard of too many overseas shops doing detailing out of country, i have found resistance to large scale e-mailing of drawings to even engineers with the proper software to read the drawings due to the manpower requirements to print them one by one. Smaller fabrication shops are even more unlikely to have this software. You can reduce the number of drawings by working on 24"x36" sheets but then they require a large scale plotter that is quite expensive or they must go to a commercial blueprinting center which is also expensive and time comsuming for your customer. If you reduce the size of all but the most complex drawings to a more office friendly 11"x17" or 11"x14" then even a modest 100ton job could have upwards of 100+ individual drawings that would have to be plotted. Again they would require proper software or you would have to individually convert all those drawings to a readily readable .pdf format. (at time expense to me as i have no need for this format) In the end they will tell you to just courier the drawings because everyone involved from fabricator to general contractor to architect to structural engineer wants a set of formally stamped drawings for their records and use. Unfortunately in a paperless world i find myself using more and more paper.

The sites you refered me to are excellent - thanks! The NISD site has a downloadable rolled steel chart that is ideal for steel detailing though my AISC/CISC manuals are indispensible.

 

[jrmack]

I am in Canada also, but also registered as a structural engineer in the US (Washington, Oregon, Hawaii,...) and in Canada from Ontario west. I am working in your industry. You are right that the cost varies substantially, same as yourself, not a simple matter of tonnage. It depends on the number of sheets, repetition and complexity. It also depends on the detailer.

I will give you some examples without the tonnage, because tonnage does not always indicate the amount of work.

$425 CAD for 13 D size hand drawn.

$3000 CAD for 35 D size hand drawn, 28 D XS, 341 B XS.

$1057 CAD for 23 D size XS, 66 B XS, 43 A XS.

I prefer the X Steel drawings, but sometimes the detailers using X Steel are not as experienced in detailing.

I can plot up to E size, but prefer to get the plots from the detailer (so much for the electronic age). I get 2 plots and return one sealed with some marks.

What works best is the erection drawings in D size, and the detailed drawings B size. A is a little small, but for some projects, OK. Paper is cheap.

email: jrmack@telus.net

 

[imyoda2]

Thanks jrmack,

I think that I am a little confused by your prices; are they for stamping, checking or drawing?

I am assuming they are for stamping and/or checking as you have places detailers in the third person.

Just from a quick calculation you are averaging $5 CAN per piece, assuming 6 pieces per D size and one per B size.

thanks again

 

[REGRUMBLE]

We are a small fabricator in Canada and frequently sub out detailing work to others. We typicaly pay between $75.00 and $125.00 a ton for all details done in Strucad. There is a lot of detailers and not a lot of work so I don't think there is a lot of room for profit. Every kid with a computer and a program (legal or not) can sell their detailing work. I have seen overseas companies advertising for $10.00 per hour US which will make it harder to compete in the Canadian or US market.

 

[imyoda2]

True enough that every kid with a computer and a program can sell their work. But from what I have seen, competent timely work is more of an exception than can be expected. If you are paying only $75 a ton for mistake riddled work that is hard to understand, incomplete, late or just doesn't fit, than the cost savings is gone. If as a fabricator your cost of detailing work out is 4-5% of contract price than it will not take a lot of errors to acheive this. Sure you can backcharge the detailer the cost of repairs up to the price of his contract, but if they have had the wherewithal to LTD their operation than likely the only thing you will be able to sue for is an old computer, if you can sue at all. (travel in India is a life changing experience, navigating the legal system would be kafkaesque)

As for the use of any automated detailer program; it is still only as good as the detailer operating it, it take a lot more knowledge than inputing the beam length and end conditions to make a good detailer. (most complex steel is well beyond these programs)It takes knowledge of fabrication and erection in addition to basic structural engineering concepts and knowledge of building codes and the ability to read contract drawings which are often wrong and require the experience of time and mistakes to recognize and assess. I can teach a good detailer how to work a program in less than a few weeks, it would take me two years to teach a engineering technican the basics, five years to make him competent. And even after that is said and done you are still only as good as your checker.


A good detailer is often underappreciated and undervalued.

thanks