Primary/Secondary Egress in Mixed Use Building

[FThumb]

Hi All,

Two years ago we purchased a 150 year old three story 'brownstone' in a popular tourist town. The front half of the shotgun lot (16' x 120') contains the 3-story brownstone with our retail art gallery on the main floor. On the back half of the lot, and attached to the 3-story building, is a 16' x 40' 1-story shop I use for making the glass art we sell in the gallery. The top two floors of the main building is our primary single-family residence. The second story of the main building is the first level of our residence and opens to the roof of the back 1-story building, where we plan to add our future entertaining open air deck.

To preserve the two parking stalls behind the back building (off-street parking spaces are a premium in this town) and for security, the original plan was to consider the roof a secondary egress with a fire escape ladder off the back. Our contractor thought we could use the stairs from the residence into the gallery as our primary egress because we own and operate both the commercial space and the residential space, and only if we leased out the gallery/shop would we need a separate primary egress from the residence off the back roof. The city inspector said, to his knowledge it doesn't matter, we can't have a primary egress through a commercial space even if it's our commercial space and operationally our primary egress, that we have to build a primary egress staircase off the back. But he's been helpful and easy to work with, and he's open if anyone has any different information.

 

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A view of the 1-story back building and the back of the 3-story main building. Our residence door opening to the roof can be seen on the left.

 

[cdafd]

1. So if I am on the front side of the building,,,

Can I get to the 2nd floor residence??


If so how????

2. Who says you need a secondary exit???

 

[cdafd]

Suggest for more answers post your question here:::

https://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/forums/residential-building-codes.34/

Free site,,, But

You will not be able to post your pictures,,

Unless you become a “Sawhorse” for a very cheap price

Or

Make them a link like with Flickr or other, and post the link

 

[FThumb]

The front is just the retail shop and two stories above. No stairs or separate entrance for stairs.

 

[FThumb]

Currently the only stairs to the second floor are located toward the back of the gallery. Original to the building (1852) and walled off with a fire door and 2-hour ratings.

 

[cdafd]

Hum
This is what current code says,, without seeing a floor plan, you may not have it, or possibly may have it:: Plus without knowing which code and year your city/ state has adopted ::


R311.1 Means of Egress
Dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress in accordance with this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.


R311.4 Vertical Egress
Egress from habitable levels including habitable attics and basements that are not provided with an egress door in accordance with Section R311.2 shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.8 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.7.

https://up.codes/viewer/kansas/irc-2018/chapter/3/building-planning#R311.1

Should have asked what state this is in??!

Does anyone live upstairs now and the last few years?!


Post on that other web site, for better answers.

 

[cdafd]

Way to go saw the post give a day or so for answers

And if you can somehow link the pictures,,, beyond my knowledge,,, sawhorses can upload direct !!!

 

[FThumb]

Illinois. No one has lived above the retail space since the early 70's. When we started the renovation we cut a large floor section out to make for an open 2-story loft, which got us around the need for a 3rd floor fire escape. The second floor has a stair to the gallery and a door to the roof of the back building.

 

[cdafd]

Yep

Thinking 2nd floor requires own dedicated exit.

Without seeing floor plan or existing interior stairs,,,

Could possibly use shared exit for 1st and 2nd

Thinking it would have to be enclosed from 1st to 2nd, with possibly a door at the 2nd floor, maybe rated.

Suggest you work with a Code Consultant,,, the money you pay that person,,, to look at the entire project,,, will more than likely save you time and money!!!!!

Not an architect

Have you sat down with the city and had some preliminary talks, with some rough plans?

Any talk of fire sprinkler system for the dwelling area??? If required, normally the entire building has to have a fire sprinkler system.

 

[FThumb]

Yep, all of that was covered with the city inspector when we bought the building. We weren't required to have a sprinkler added because we built up the floor between the commercial (1st floor) and residential (2nd floor) to a minimum 2-hour fire barrier, which included double walling the stair enclosure between the 1st and 2nd floors and adding a fire rated door. 2nd floor also has a door to the roof of the back building.

The current issue is whether this existing interior stair to the 1st floor can be considered a "primary" egress, in which case we can get away with a basic fire-escape ladder off the roof of the back building, or if the existing stair can only be considered a secondary egress, which would require the roof exit to be the primary egress, which would involve a larger and much more expensive stairway to be added off the roof. The inspector said a primary egress cannot go through a commercial space, even if we own both, but I can't find anywhere where the codes say this, or if there's an exemption if we live/work in both the res/comm space.

 

[cdafd]

Suggest you post this::;

Illinois. No one has lived above the retail space since the early 70's. When we started the renovation we cut a large floor section out to make for an open 2-story loft, which got us around the need for a 3rd floor fire escape. The second floor has a stair to the gallery and a door to the roof of the back building.



The more info the better

 

[cdafd]

Missed this

Currently the only stairs to the second floor are located toward the back of the gallery. Original to the building (1852) and walled off with a fire door and 2-hour ratings.

I think the exit can be shared

Post this comment also on the other::

covered with the city inspector when we bought the building. We weren't required to have a sprinkler added because we built up the floor between the commercial (1st floor) and residential (2nd floor) to a minimum 2-hour fire barrier, which included double walling the stair enclosure between the 1st and 2nd floors and adding a fire rated door. 2nd floor also has a door to the roof of the back building.

The current issue is whether this existing interior stair to the 1st floor can be considered a "primary" egress, in which case we can get away with a basic fire-escape ladder off the roof of the back building, or if the existing stair can only be considered a secondary egress, which would require the roof exit to be the primary egress, which would involve a larger and much more expensive stairway to be added off the roof. The inspector said a primary egress cannot go through a commercial space, even if we own both, but I can't find anywhere where the codes say this, or if there's an exemption if we live/work in both the res/comm space.

 

[cdafd]

I still do not think, if the interior exit is legal, you are required a second exit.

 

[cdafd]

Your question is more residential, don’t worry about the double post

Just pick only one to reply to

Should have said post this also



Currently the only stairs to the second floor are located toward the back of the gallery. Original to the building (1852) and walled off with a fire door and 2-hour ratings.

 

[cdafd]

To kind of answer your question

Kind of like a hotel

You walk down the enclosed stairs and out the exterior door

On the first floor, and out an exterior door, sometimes the same door as the enclosed stair.

 

[cdafd]

Ohhhhh

That is why a floor plan helps


“”As to 1016.2, our current egress stairway opens to the main-floor gallery and gives us unobstructed access to the front door (through the art gallery space), and unobstructed exit through the shop space in back. Neither would be a greater hazard space,“””

I would say No!

1. Anyway is it close to an exterior wall, to punch an opening for an exterior door??

Or

2. Add a two hour rated, maybe one hour, corridor through “unobstructed exit through the shop space in back” to that back exit.

Shared

 

[FThumb]

We can't go sideways as we're an historic row of 1800's buildings in a tourist town. Think of Bourbon Street New Orleans.

Dedicating a hall either way would remove too much needed space for either the retail or the shop.

 

[cdafd]

“””We did use an architect, and plans were approved by the city before we started demolition and rebuilding. “”


So what exiting from the 2nd floor was approved???

Or

An exit plan was approved and you want something different now?

 

[FThumb]

The original approved plans showed a stair going back, but the value of the second off-street parking stall increased since then. I wanted to propose replacing that stair with a retractable fire-escape ladder, thinking it would be acceptable as a secondary egress. But if we cannot use the current interior stairs as a "primary" egress and that has to be a secondary egress, making the back roof exit a "primary" egress, it forces us to build a larger stair.

My hope/question centers on whether or not we can declare the interior stairs a primary egress and the roof exit a secondary egress.