Products that prick your conscience 13

[3dKiwi]

Just a thought, but do any other members face a dilemma regarding the items they produce?
As a plastics toolmaker/drafter I have always avoided the bottle/packaging industry, as the problems relating to disposal are all too obvious.
This may seem rather trivial, but how about people involved in the manufacture of land mines, for example?

DC

 

[oxilume]

IR Stuff,

Your reply to my post was;
"Right... So we should force ALL eight moms to drive SUV's to pick up their kids, individually, increasing both pollution and congestion?

TTFN."

My wife is a soccer Mom, but she drives a Siena Mini Van that gets about 25 mpg. Now, when we drive up to the soccer field the number of gas guzzling SUV's far out number more efficient mini-vans that can carry the same number of passengers.

In addition, when I dropped my son and neighbor's two children off at school today, I counted the "large" SUVs parked in the "Teacher's" parking lot. There were 18 SUVs and only one small mini-van. NO two or four door small or medium size cars!

The point I was trying to make is that the price of gasoline is escalating, yet the number of large SUVs and trucks on the highway are also increasing. I guess many Americans have lots of cash to simply throw away. Or many American's do not have a conscience when it comes to fuel efficiency, pollution, etc. They simply don't care.

I drive a 1997 Chrysler Cirrus that now has 187,689 miles. Yesterday, on my way back from Corpus Christi I averaged 28.01 mpg. My next vehicle will be a Toyota Prius.

NOTE: I have invented a reformer that can help usher in a hydrogen economy quite rapidly. It will convert any carbonaceous matter to hydrogen. Yes, just hydrogen. The carbon is sequestered within the system. It will be on the market within the next 90 days. It will first be used in the oilfield on drilling rigs and next in several large scale PetroChem plants along the Gulf Coast. Also, the system can be used for decomposing MSW prior to being landfilled. So the fluff from all those fairly new vehicles can easily be converted to a fuel in lieu of being disposed of in a landfill.

One last thought -
Where do all of the "old" vehicles end up. Metals are recycled but the fluff usually ends up in a landfill. Why do you think Europe has enacted take back laws.

 

[aspearin1]

oxilume,
Your points are valid. It is clear consumers are preferring the gas guzzling monsters. I wouldn't call it just a fad or a willful neglect for the importance of a fuel efficient economy. From my experience most people have made a clear choice to use an SUV for safety reasons. Soccer moms in particular could choose to have a high riding vehicle that at least give them the illusion of safety. (after the Ford-Firestone criss-crossed finger-pointed salute, there's little question that safety can be an illusion.) So then engineers and manufacturers, since they're already on the bandwagon of providing a vehicle the consumer seems to want, why not give them what they really want... a truly safe vehicle with good gas mileage... or alternate fuel? The technology for this is evolving, but the revolution has yet to occur. And it probably won't until business owners and policymakers are backed into a corner. I still say that engineers should take some personal responsibility for the products that go out the door, because the majority of consumers are not aware of the consequences of their purchases, and the fuel economy/fossil fuel depletion estimates are controversial at best. There is no clear-cut agreement. GWB says drill in Alaska and keep an eye on Yosemite. I say stop drilling and find an alternate fuel source. Consumers say, "I need gas."

Aaron Spearin, EIT
ChemE, M.E.
"The only constant in life is change." -Dan Andia; 1999, Chemical Engineering Progress

 

[IRstuff]

Oxilume,

Your statement, which I quoted verbatim, implied that driving around a bunch of kids was not carpooling because:

quote] she is the only legal driver in the vehicle. This is not car pooling. [/quote].

My response what that this eliminated each mom driving their own SUV with their own kid and clogging the road.



As for gas economy, the answer is mundane, despite spikes, gas prices have not really risen in any real sense relative to standard of living.

Couple this with the fact that people are more willing to take on debt, which allows them to buy the bigger SUVs.

The wave of gas economy initiatives in the 70's was tied directly to the scarcity and price of gas during the gas embargo. So the solution is clear; we need to provoke another gas embargo. Probably won't work, since we're obviously more willing to go to war over that sort of thing now.

TTFN

 

[buzzp]

If the SUV owners did their homework, they would find that these are one not as safe as they think. Rollovers is a real concern to me. They just are not stable. Most people buy them because it appears everyone else has one. Thats the only reason.

On a different note, I think consumers should be responsible for waste, etc from the products they use. The company that makes them, also, needs to be responsible. They are not immune, every one of their employees is a consumer. The company itself is a consumer.
Its sad, but most companies only look at the bottom line. The more money it makes the better. This is natural, afterall a company is around to make money. Too many do not care about the effects or affects of the products they make or the way they make them, as long as its cheap, its the best option. There used to be people around that actually thought about these things but they are quickly fading away. Both the company and the consumer are responsible.

 

[GregLocock]

The point about SUVs is that the cost of fuel is virtually irrelevant to the total cost of ownership. As evelrod often points out, even now fuel is cheaper in real terms than it was in the sixties or any time before.

Due to a ludicrous series of laws voted for by /your/ representatives in Government it is cheaper to buy and run an SUV than the equivalent minivan. The SUV is also much cheaper to develop, so it gets bells and whistles that the minivan does not, thus making it more attractive to the cup-holder crowd. Added to this is the image thing. Monster trucks and 4wd have an aura that a minivan lacks, so people are willing to pay more for a given vehicle. This is the way of the world.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[IRstuff]

Only for BUSINESS. Us engineer sods don't get that tax break.

TTFN

 

[GregLocock]

I didn't just mean the tax break, I'm pretty sure the safety, emissions and CAFE requirements differ, favouring SUVs.

This reduces the variable cost of each vehicle, and reduces its development cost, which can be quite a significant part of the cost of the vehicle - say you sell a half a million of one model, and it cost half a billion in development and fixed costs, that will have to be amortised at $1000 per car. Those numbers are not untypical, it is easy to spend far more than that on a program - a world car from scratch is around 6 billion.




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[IRstuff]

Well, they are not all cheaper to buy.

The Land Cruiser MSRP is $54765. You could buy a maxed-out Sienna and a maxed-out Corolla for the same amount.

Not convinced they're cheaper to operate, either.
The Land Cruiser's EPA mileage is 17 mpg, while the most expensive Sienna's mileage is 24 mpg.

TTFN

 

[buzzp]

A good old Suburban would not be classified as an SUV to me (to long of a wheel base). I like driving them, they are more stable than a Durango or Explorer.

 

[jmw]

Whoever invented speed cameras can't be sleeping too good.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

 

[funnelguy]

Wheelbase is a determining factor? How is an SUV defined? I really should have kept a copy of that post...

 

[GregLocock]

No they aren't cheaper to buy.

Say you have 40000 to spend moving 6 people around. I can sell you an SUV, with its lower safety and emissions and CAFE requirements, with a lot of bells and whistles, for 40000, or I can sell you a minivan, that meets all those regulatory requirements, for 40000. No bells, no whistles, I've spent all that money developing the thing.

The reality is that bells and whistles are much cheaper than you might think, and are primarily there for product differentiation and marketing. Again, this is customer driven, if our average customer is willing to pay 1000 more for some fake wood, velour seat material, and a ten dollar clock, then we will go broke if we don't do that, because someone else will and will use the extra profit to reduce the base price of their car.

Our coffee club in the office regularly makes a bigger annual profit than most car companies.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[patdaly]

Greg Locock pens:
"Say you have 40000 to spend moving 6 people around. I can sell you an SUV, with its lower safety and emissions and CAFE requirements, with a lot of bells and whistles, for 40000, or I can sell you a minivan, that meets all those regulatory requirements, for 40000. No bells, no whistles, I've spent all that money developing the thing."

Exactly!
Lets examine the situation in the US. Im a big boy, 6'5". I dont FIT in what they try and excuse for a car. Thus, if I were to buy a new vehicle, it by definition would be a Truck or large SUV. Thankfully, I can still lay my hands on a large, RWD sedan, currently the car of choice is a Buick Roadmaster wagon, big, roomy and 26-27 MPG on the Hwy to boot. Pray tell why dosent GM manufacture anything like this today? Emissions, etc.
Crackerbox cars may be fine for small countries, but not worth a hoot here.
Another thought, we always hear about how wonderful the Europeans do with fuel economy, why not just import their cars? Sorry, wont pass crash and emissions laws.

 

[buzzp]

Wheelbase is definately one of the determining factors in how a vehicle handles, stability. In my book, this should be a fundamental factor in determining SUV category or not, afterall the 'S' stands for sport. A suburban is NOT a SUV.

 

[funnelguy]

OK, I have to admit I'm suprised. I always thought of a Suburban as a big SUV. What was Ford's really big one? And then there's the Hummer. Is a Suburban a truck then? Certainly a long wheelbase causes a slower yaw response, more time for the aged like me to respond. I drove a CJ-5 some years ago and found it to be a bit nervous. I would think, however, that track width and the center of gravity height would be the largest contributing factors in rollovers. I doubt that full size conversion vans and pickup trucks are any better than a mid-field SUV. Is a Tahoe an SUV? Certainly a Jeep Grand Cherokee must be....

 

[IRstuff]

Everyone can rationalize away, but Chevrolet lists the Suburban in the SUV category:

http://www.chevrolet.com/suburban/specs.htm

The Suburban is listed with 130 inch wheelbase. The Ford Excursion is listed with 137 inch wheelbase:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/Suvs/excursion/features/specdimensions/

Ford, likewise, lists the Excursion as an SUV.

TTFN

 

[buzzp]

Interesting. I wonder how the old 80's variety SUbrubans compare in wheelbase/track to a new one? I have driven a suburban many times along with a Tahoe. The Tahoe, feels like it wants to roll sooner. I believe the Suburban has a wider track, maybe not (the new Suburbans are actuall 1-2" thinner than a Blazer but 30" longer).

 

[mabn]

We are talking about certain industries that are driven by customer/consumer wants and desires. Who creates those desires? Society isn't full of level headed engineers, most of the population can be persuaded, and with billions of dollars sunk into psycologists turned marketers, desires are easily created from nothing. It's not our role as engineers, and there's not much we can do to change this, but where are the ethics here?

Regards

 

[onlyadrafter]

Hello,

Nit sure if this has been said already, as I have just found this thread and have read only a little of each reply.

Surely, everything we manufacture can potentially cause death. How many people are killed on the roads, on trains, in the air?

What about other products, anything with electricity can kill.

I have two young kids, I have to be very careful with what they play with as it usually goes straight into their mouth.

Going back to your land-mines question, what if the Germans had tried to invade England during the war.

A classic example of product change has to be the BIC pen, they had to put a hole in the end so people didn't choke. (I think this is true).

I could go on, but I won't.

It is really up to you, to go off ona tangent slightly, when I was interviewed for my current position, I was asked if I had any problems with our products being sold to South Africa (during apartheid). What about issues like this?



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Hope this helps.
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maybe only a drafter
but the best user at this company!

 

[profengmen]

A hole in the end of a Bic pen so people wouldn't choke?

What?

What hole? if there is a hole, it's so air can get in to allow the ink to flow, I imagine.