Professional ethics in posting and responding on Eng-tips 17

[sms]

Where are the ethical grey areas in posting an responding on Eng-tips? The discussion in this forum titled "My boss says to look the other way?" might be one example of a discussion that should not be taking place online in a public forum, where should the line be drawn in such online discussions?

Another example a few weeks back, someone had posted a question to mechanical engineering other topics about how to use a lawn mower engine to rig up a rope tow for skiiers in their back yard. Should we be giving advice to non engineers on such a thing? Especially if someone might get hurt? I didn't think so, so I red flagged it.

In gas compression engineering there is an ongoing discussion about how to rig up an air compressor to compress natural gas off the utility system so the guy will have a nice supply of welding gas. There has been lots of discussion on how to do it, and most of the posters have stated that it could be dangerous. I took some heat because rather than comment on the technical details of how to do it, I rudely just said it shouldn't be done, and yes I implied it was a stupid idea. So the heat was probably justified since I didn't handle it gently, but should we really be giving the guy ideas on how to do it and what to watch out for, when it is just a bad idea? Or I am being too sensitive?

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[FACS]

No, you are not being too sensitive. This subject has been discussed since I can remember (2004).

That is exactly what the red flags are for. Just keep on keeping on.

As for giving out advice to non-engineers... they get the red flag also.

I remember the post about modifying a large tractor-pulled lawn mower with chains for cutting brush... it was red flagged and removed after I called it a "people killer".

This forum is for engineers to discuss engineering projects; when we see people killers, we flag em.

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[dik]

This is one of my posts regarding the topic from the thread...

To all...

I note in the threads that there is some confidentiality required.

*I often use google for research and occasionally end up with an Eng-Tips hit. This is the result of a Google search... If you don't want the material to be visible to anyone at any time, you might want to redflag this thread... Your postings here are not unique to this forum...

Tip: Try removing quotes from your search to get more results.
Professional Ethics in engineering Forum - Eng-Tips
My boss says look the other way? Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! Helpful Member! cjd97 (Structural). 13 replies ...

http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=765

- 34k - 26 Jan 2007 - Cached - Similar pages*

The above came directly from a Google search.

Dik

 

[FACS]

Nothing confidential should ever be posted on a public forum.

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[dtn6770]

I assumed ye-ol red flag was reserved for posts that inappropriate in the context of language (vulgar, abusive, etc). I hadn’t though about it beyond that but I guess there is some merit to using it as a filter.

Should we give advice to non-engineers? It depends on what the advice is. “Don’t do it” or “you’re going to get someone killed” is advice. By no means should any of us encourage or promote “people killers” but I’d like to think the censorship comes from community responses or the post being flat out ignored. Silence can come across quite loudly. Then comes the issue of dealing with those that do fuel threads that need to be ignored or spoken out against, again community response. Sometimes people need to hear they’re being stupid to keep from doing something stupid.

Yes, this is supposed to be a forum for engineers but that title doesn’t exempt someone from poor judgment in initiating or answering a thread. A "bad" engineer can be just as, if not more, dangerous than a non-engineer. I’ve known plenty of engineers (myself included) that either through inexperience or ignorance have had bad ideas. We’ve also seen questionable posts from people that are probably engineers and they tend to get their fair share of counseling.

These are self regulating forums and as such everyone participating needs to exercise good judgment in what they post and what information they walk away with

 

[civilperson]

Big brother and his minions are antithetical to free flow of ideas and opinions. Even wrong and dangerous ideas and suggestions should be exposed to rigorous debate, NOT CENSORSHIP! Keep your red flags for duplicate postings and let unpopular or unexpert opinions have a voice.

 

[dcasto]

The discussions like the one sms mentioned, were of the nature of finding a better mousetrap. Everyone warned the guy wanting to use a piece of equipment in a different service. The easy way out on any post is to say NO. What do we learn from that? Almost everyone that said it could be done iterated that he sould use bottled gas. You can go out and buy a FORD v-8 engine that has a special intake and ehaust manifold on one bank that uses that bank as a gas compressor up to 150 psig!!! The other bank is the power. If we would have said NO to the guy that thought that up!!
The spirit is to find solutions, if I'm off track because I didn't think about the seal implications, I'll learn only if I'm told, not RED FLAGGED.

 

[patprimmer]

If someone has said something here, they should presume it will get public scrutiny.

If after posting, they decide they might have jeopardised their anonymity and that might be a problem for them, they should red flag their own post.

I personally do not think it is anyone else's business if someone choses to expose themselves.

If they expose others, that is a whole different ballgame and should be red flagged without hesitation.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

Having the "dangerous ideas/equipment" threads, removed does absolutely nothing to protect anyone. In fact it could put the OP at increased risk. How do you know that the OP read the warnings before they disappeared?

Does anyone really believe that removing the thread will stop the "inventor" of such equipment from continuing with the idea? If the thread is left with posts warning of the dangers involved, they just might be read and heeded by the next "inventor" of a similar idea.

Save the RFs for posts which offer dangerously incorrect advice, libelous or inappropriate language, antagonistic or racist views, etc.

 

[Tomfh]

Why aren't we allowed to give advice to non-engineers anyway?

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Some of the people with bad ideas, if ignored/red flagged here, will keep posting in other forums until they finally get what they percieve as encouragement. If we respond negatively with ratioanl reasons why not to do something, maybe one out of ten OPs will re-examine their ideas and not hurt somebody. I'm okay with that.

 

[sms]

I agree with TheBlacksmith, but it really depends on what feed back the OP gets on why the thread was removed. If there is feed back, and it is specific on why the thread was removed, then maybe it is a good thing.

The problem I see with leaving such threads, is someone else (or hundreds of someone elses)googles "back yard tow rope design for skiiers" and reads the thread here on how to do it, without ever engaging the community and finding out about the dangerous bits.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[ewh]

While it may be up to us to police the site, we need to use restraint in the interest of the free exchange of information. I don't feel that we have the obligation to red flag a post because someone may find it by googling for it unless, as Pat pointed out, it exposes others without their consent. If they don't read the entire thread and any negatives to their question, it is their own fault. If they don't find what they are looking for here, they will find it elsewhere, maybe without any caveats.
As to not allowing non-engineering posters, what is the difference between that and, say, an automotive engineer only experienced in electronics asking a question about hydraulics or corrosion? An earnest hobbyist question can still add value to the site as a whole.

 

[civilperson]

I bet less than 50% of the postings are done by PE's. Techs, EIT's, science graduates and engineering graduates, contractors and laypersons have knowledge and questions that are suitable for posting. The PE's expertise and experience is usually narrow in scope and thus the need to expose your ignorance to what seems simple to a person who has dealt which similar problems many times.

 

[MedicineEng]

I agree with most of the persons:
I don't think that red flag a crazy/dangerous/out of ordinary idea is the way for several reasons:
-Red flags wil not prevent anybody to pursue the idea, rational and clear advises might;
-Maybe what started with a craxy/our of ordinary idea turns out to be with some modifications and peer review a feasible idea for other application, situation, etc.;
-Even if in the end it is still a crazy idea but if the inventor takes into consideration some of the inputs in the thread might not turn out to be so dangerous.
Some of the best solutions that I had in my work started with one crazy idea

 

[zdas04]

Tomth,
That is an excellent question that really goes to the heart of this discussion.

Recently an inventor asked me to provide a conceptual design-review of her idea. I made a couple of suggestions of areas where she could improve efficiency or safety. She wasn't an engineer. I'll probably never know if she took my advice or not. If she builds the widget as she originally designed it and kills someone, I don't have any liability or even guilty feelings. If she accepts my suggestions and still kills someone (maybe because of something I missed, and maybe because of other factors) I still don't have any liability because she didn't ask me to develop design documents/drawings nor did she ask me to supervise fabrication or tooling.

I see that face-to-face commercial transaction as very much analogous to eng-tips.com. People ask a question (generally providing a fraction of the information needed for a rigorous answer), other people either try to answer it or provide information on specific aspects of the question that interest/concern them. The original poster either does something with the information provided or doesn't. If he does, then implementation of the design/design-changes is the OP's responsibility. I don't see how it matters if the OP is an engineer with 40 years relevant experience, an engineer with experience in a different field, or a hobbyist--the responsibility for the interpretation and implementation of any suggestions that they got from eng-tips.com is solely theirs.

Management at eng-tips.com tries to keep hobbyists out, but they aren't nuts about it. They understand that the Automotive Fora (for example) are full of people who are working on the family Truckster. As long as the questions are interesting and the poster not blatent in their disregard of the proscription against hobbyists then they stay and occasionaly contribute useful information.

It is easy for us to get really full of ourselves here, but it is a bad idea. We've all worked for/around "engineers" who don't have an engineering degree (one of the best I ever saw had a degree in Biology). These people are called "engineer" by their company and often by the state boards. I think this should be a "don't ask, don't tell" situation--as long as the poster is following most of the rules of the site (e.g., no selling, no student homework, etc) then I always assume the question is from an "engineer" and try to see if I have anything to add to the discussion.

David

 

[FACS]

Crazy Ideas don't hurt people. Dangerous ideas hurt people; if they are carried out. They won't get carried out if I have anything to say about it, because I will Red Flag the post. I'm not going to leave a dangerous idea hanging in the wind for all to see. If the idea is going to be implemented, it won't be because of my failure to remove it from this forum.

Red flag dangerous ideas. The intent of this post is the responsibility of the forum; to keep it professional and relevant. Some of the opinions here lead me to believe that some have to old "If I don't help him someone else will" That's bunk.


Don't reveal anything that you don't want the world to see.

It's not censorship, it's not big brother... is the responsible thing to do.






Charlie

http://www.facsco.com

 

[ewh]

"It's not censorship"

??? A rose is a rose...

 

[civilperson]

If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck and flies around the pond like a duck then it is probably CENSORSHIP hiding behind "good judgement", protection of the uninformed or similar specious reasoning.

 

[FACS]

Well, OK, then it's censorship. That does not make it wrong. This is not the government nor is it a Democracy. It is a website with rules.

Charlie

http://www.facsco.com