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Professionalism 5
- Thread starter APH
- Start date
I'm glad I decided to refresh the screen before posting, and saw VE1BLL's post (ham call sign?); I can delete my lecture on the meaning of "straw man". It was a vague rhetorical reference, slightly misapplied in this case, and I apologize for the unintended interpretation that it was a description of the person making the argument. (I just committed one of my main gripes about specification writing: "I knew what I meant--why didn't you know what I meant?")
I think VE1BLL's specifics (such as "consciously keeping your confidence level somewhere just below your competence level") are excellent. The generic of "make sure you actually do competent engineering" and the implication that none of us think of such things is what I took issue with.
Regarding choice of clothing, obviously your mileage will vary. From workplace to workplace, and situation to situation. Within any environment there will still be a range, and some people will be on one end and some on the other. I'm not the only T-shirt and sandal wearer here, but I admit we are at the tail end of acceptability (and I still get a hell of a lot more respect than the last several (better-dressed) guys to hold my job). On the other hand, jeans and sneakers are pretty standard in this office (even my boss wears jeans and sneakers unless he has a meeting to go to), and someone wearing a necktie in my position would be looked at very strangely indeed. Someplace else I might be wearing a jacket to work every day to do the same kind of job. It really does depend not just on individual personality but on circumstance.
Okay, I'm bored today but not *that* bored, so I think I'll shut up for a while now.
Hg
I think VE1BLL's specifics (such as "consciously keeping your confidence level somewhere just below your competence level") are excellent. The generic of "make sure you actually do competent engineering" and the implication that none of us think of such things is what I took issue with.
Regarding choice of clothing, obviously your mileage will vary. From workplace to workplace, and situation to situation. Within any environment there will still be a range, and some people will be on one end and some on the other. I'm not the only T-shirt and sandal wearer here, but I admit we are at the tail end of acceptability (and I still get a hell of a lot more respect than the last several (better-dressed) guys to hold my job). On the other hand, jeans and sneakers are pretty standard in this office (even my boss wears jeans and sneakers unless he has a meeting to go to), and someone wearing a necktie in my position would be looked at very strangely indeed. Someplace else I might be wearing a jacket to work every day to do the same kind of job. It really does depend not just on individual personality but on circumstance.
Okay, I'm bored today but not *that* bored, so I think I'll shut up for a while now.
Hg
I use to work in an architectural design firm, mostly residential, about 35% commercial work. We were located in a "mini mall" right on the beach in Cocoa Beach, Fl. Standard dress was t-shirt, shorts (bathing suit actually) and flip-flops. If the waves were good, we'd take a 2-hour lunch with the boss and our surf boards. If we had a meeting scheduled with a client, we'd upgrade to polo-shirts and jeans (still wearing the sandals), which we all kept hanging in a small locker.
So environment plays a huge role when trying to define "professionalism".
Has this discussion strayed from professionalism to competence?
"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
So environment plays a huge role when trying to define "professionalism".
Has this discussion strayed from professionalism to competence?
"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
- Thread starter
- #29
Don't die yet. I'm still listening. I think VE1BLL has a very valid point and being carefull and paying attention to details are certainly in my vocabulary of being professional. On my performace review at the old job, paying attention to detail and being pro-active were my weaknesses that my old supervisor point ou. I realized that and I'm determined to improve it. I know a guy who is very competance in the design, problem solving, and other technical questions, but his conduct and attitude were not proffesional. I think competance is one many aspect of being professional.
APH
APH
Professional attitude... don't just cite problems, but also suggest solutions.
"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
I think that a professional attitude is that you must be responsible for your actions. If you know that you are responsible for the way you look, design, fill out forms, when you make a mistake and fest up so that the whole project does not go into the tank. I think that is the ultimate character of being a professional, being able to admit that you have made a mistake and not try to blame somebody else. I’ve saw some people who will not admit that they are wrong or made the mistake and start finger pointing. It just makes them look like babies. Hey I admit, I’m no supper engineer, I had some SNAFU with my calculator, switching units from SI to English and vise versa, bad info from the internet…etc. I admitted that I made the mistake and did some show stoppers until I figured out how to fix it. It shows that you have some integrity in your work, that you can take the kudos with the lumps.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
I'd like to give a subtle example of overconfidence and the predictable result. (For narrative purposes, this is the simplified version.)
I was reviewing a document with the definition of a binary word, but the various bit patterns were listed in essentially random order (not following any logical sequence - no reason for it). The author of the document had obviously assumed that they were sufficiently gifted (competent) that they wouldn't make any errors and therefore had no need to be more careful.
I was suspicious, and so I cut-and-paste the entire list into MS-Excel and then sorted it into simple binary order (for review purposes). It immediately became obvious that there were errors, duplications, and omissions - just as I suspected there would be.
The above is just an example of how assuming that you're human and capable of making mistakes, can lead to a more careful approach that can eliminate such errors at the outset.
As related to this thread, I'd rather deal with someone that 'wears sandals' and instinctively lists the bit patterns in a logical order, than deal with someone 'with nice shoes' that doesn't understand that such an approach increases the risk of errors.
Thankfully, this more careful approach can be learned.
Unfortunately, it is often learned the hard way.
I was reviewing a document with the definition of a binary word, but the various bit patterns were listed in essentially random order (not following any logical sequence - no reason for it). The author of the document had obviously assumed that they were sufficiently gifted (competent) that they wouldn't make any errors and therefore had no need to be more careful.
I was suspicious, and so I cut-and-paste the entire list into MS-Excel and then sorted it into simple binary order (for review purposes). It immediately became obvious that there were errors, duplications, and omissions - just as I suspected there would be.
The above is just an example of how assuming that you're human and capable of making mistakes, can lead to a more careful approach that can eliminate such errors at the outset.
As related to this thread, I'd rather deal with someone that 'wears sandals' and instinctively lists the bit patterns in a logical order, than deal with someone 'with nice shoes' that doesn't understand that such an approach increases the risk of errors.
Thankfully, this more careful approach can be learned.
Unfortunately, it is often learned the hard way.
My favorite example of admitting errors is the classic case of LeMessurier and the CitiCorp tower. For them as haven't heard the story yet, look here:
(looks like a reprint of the New Yorker article though NY isn't mentioned)
and here:
I've heard it debated whether he wasted potentially precious days pondering what to do, and whether the "spin" put on the repairs in the interest of not causing panic could be considered lying, but all in all here's a case of a guy blowing the whistle on himself and coming out smelling of roses. Hell, after he came to talk to my school, I wanted to work for the him (he seems like my kind of smartass bastard, and I really do mean that in a good way).
That's a case of combining both the competence and the presentation aspects of professionalism--the competence to understand the problem and fix it, and the savvy to handle it in such a way as to create nothing but positive impressions all the way.
He was probably wearing a tie.
(looks like a reprint of the New Yorker article though NY isn't mentioned)
and here:
I've heard it debated whether he wasted potentially precious days pondering what to do, and whether the "spin" put on the repairs in the interest of not causing panic could be considered lying, but all in all here's a case of a guy blowing the whistle on himself and coming out smelling of roses. Hell, after he came to talk to my school, I wanted to work for the him (he seems like my kind of smartass bastard, and I really do mean that in a good way).
That's a case of combining both the competence and the presentation aspects of professionalism--the competence to understand the problem and fix it, and the savvy to handle it in such a way as to create nothing but positive impressions all the way.
He was probably wearing a tie.
profengmen
Mechanical
APH asked for ways he can be prefessional in all aspects.
Sorry folks, I don't give a rip how good an engineer you are....wearing sandals to work is unprofessional...period.
The way you dress indiciates the way you percieve yourself; and if you want to be seen as professional, I suggest you act and look like it.
Sorry folks, I don't give a rip how good an engineer you are....wearing sandals to work is unprofessional...period.
The way you dress indiciates the way you percieve yourself; and if you want to be seen as professional, I suggest you act and look like it.
My philosophy of dressing is dress that same as your boss. If he dresses in a white shirt with tie and dress pants, you dress the same manner. If your boss dresses in polo shirt and khakis, you dress the same manner. My first boss wore the white shirt, tie, and dress pants. I dressed the same way for two years with suit jacket. With the next boss, he wore a polo shirt and khakis, and yes I did the same thing for the next three years. Now my boss dress in polo shirt with either jeans or khakis, you can guess what I’m wearing now. But from all of this facade the phrase “you can not judge a book by its cover” comes to mind.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
Heh. Actually that ties into another thread from about a month ago, about what constitutes professional women's wear in various contexts. "Dress like the boss" doesn't help in the faily common situation of female employee and male boss--unless the boss is wearing something unisex like T-shirts and jeans...That's it! It's not dressing down, it's striking a blow for equality!
Speaking of women's wear, sandals in the office seem to be much more acceptable if they're little strappy numbers with a medium heel, pantyhose (possibly optional), and a dress (and a socially acceptable chromosome set to match). Somehow toes aren't so controversial when there's a whole lot more flesh on view to accompany them. Never seemed logical to me.
Generally, though, dressing like the boss, or just slightly down from the boss (we have a pretty clear tie/no tie dividing line here, drawn just above first-level managers), is pretty good guidance.
Hg
Speaking of women's wear, sandals in the office seem to be much more acceptable if they're little strappy numbers with a medium heel, pantyhose (possibly optional), and a dress (and a socially acceptable chromosome set to match). Somehow toes aren't so controversial when there's a whole lot more flesh on view to accompany them. Never seemed logical to me.
Generally, though, dressing like the boss, or just slightly down from the boss (we have a pretty clear tie/no tie dividing line here, drawn just above first-level managers), is pretty good guidance.
Hg
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- #39
Be positive not negative
Listen to others otherwise they won't listen to you
Think before you put your foot in it
Try to be logical and considerate
Be approachable. If you are too stern, people will be afraid to talk to you. That leads to frustration.
Learn to communicate clearly and explain exactly what you want and expect.
Try not to ask others to do what you can't (sometimes though thats the reason why you employ them)
give praise when its due...dont over do it as insincerity is not a good thing
Don't reprimand anybody in public.
Don't call people, thats not very professional.(decline to comment..that will win more respect)
Don't be afraid to give your opinion but make sure that your argumant is well thought through first.
Learn to argue and negotiate properly...there is a great skill to this.
If you are really keen, get a few books out on management and sales skills. They can be 90% Bull s$*t but the 10% is really worth it.
And don't forget, your boss won't live forever.
Friar Tuck of Sherwood
Listen to others otherwise they won't listen to you
Think before you put your foot in it
Try to be logical and considerate
Be approachable. If you are too stern, people will be afraid to talk to you. That leads to frustration.
Learn to communicate clearly and explain exactly what you want and expect.
Try not to ask others to do what you can't (sometimes though thats the reason why you employ them)
give praise when its due...dont over do it as insincerity is not a good thing
Don't reprimand anybody in public.
Don't call people, thats not very professional.(decline to comment..that will win more respect)
Don't be afraid to give your opinion but make sure that your argumant is well thought through first.
Learn to argue and negotiate properly...there is a great skill to this.
If you are really keen, get a few books out on management and sales skills. They can be 90% Bull s$*t but the 10% is really worth it.
And don't forget, your boss won't live forever.
Friar Tuck of Sherwood
friartuck said:
I can't agree more on this point too. I used to have a manager that would always yell at people right in front of others, and would also argue with his superiors in front of everyone. Not professional at all.
A few years ago I had to travel to NY to visit a packaging vendor. I could not believe how he treated his shop workers. He would yell at the top of his voice, degrading his men, calling them every name and racial slurr in the book. Then he would instruct them to go stand in the corner to get out of the way until they got "straight in the head". After seeing this scene more than 5 times in only a single week, we decided we didn't what to do business with the company.
"But what... is it good for?"
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
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