Proposing 3D to Management

[Chapstick]

I have been asked fo create a report on what it would take for my cad group to go 3D. I myself excel in both Autocad and Solidworks, and have used Pro/E, CadKey, Mechanical Desktop. My main question it to see if any of you out there do something similar to my groups function.

I am a machine designer and am used to modeling/detailing every part into a complete assembly.... BUT
I took a move with a company that is strictly on the project/consulting end of the business. What we do is design packaging lines, brewery lines and much much more for the food and beverage industry. Without giving names, we are a world leader in this business.

We don't design anything, we develop the lines, accumulation and recovery studies and so on. We use Autocad and import (primarily 2d Autocad) drawings from the vendors and then proceed to the conveyor. We are noticing that more of the customers are liking 3D representation. The problem lies within vendors not using 3D so we would have to develop every piece of equipment in a 3D form, for each job. Some equipment we like and use it often. But almost every line has something new. Conveyor companies like Hytrol have thair own 3D software that lays in their conveyor. This is nice but i doubt it will convert well and we would have to redraw it.

Enough for now, sorry for the length. Basically our end result doesnt need to be detail... just a true representation of the entire line, filler, accumulation table, conveyor to packers, conveyor to palletizers... that is a very simple line. For those of you who have seen packaging lined you will understand what we are needing to do i hope.

We just want the customer to be able to get a good feel for the line. Keep in mind when we start a project, there is a lot of trial and error, moving stuff around, changing elevations and so on. If we had it designed and then wanted to take it to 3D i could answer all of my questions... but designing like this on the fly in 3D... i have my concerns. I hope one of you are in a sinilar situation and can offer some insight.

Thanks for reading, Regards

 

[MadMango]

There would be a lot of up-front work that would have to be performed before you saw any benefit of using 3D for this type of work. You'd have to create your own models of the commercially available components and sub-systems, building intelligence into them so they would be easy to change based upon customer requirements. Some factors to consider for your models:

1) Keep the geometry simple. Don’t put a lot of detail into them unless your customers need a certain level of detail.
2) Make the geometry flexible. Know what features of the sub-systems are going to change from customer-to-customer, and make configurations (SW term) to handle them.
3) Make the geometry useful. Build into your models enough information to cover things such as maintenance access and mechanical/electric interfaces.

Once you have your “library” of standard components and sub-systems, being able to layout systems should be very quick and simple. Changes will be much faster than traditional 2d as well.

I’m not sure what you are asking, but here are some other things to consider. 3d CAD is more resource intensive that 2d CAD. Chances are if your computer systems are 2-3 years old (or older), your company is going to have to invest in more powerful computers, or at least better graphic cards, more memory and stable operating systems. Also don’t forget the value of CAD training. I’m sure you don’t want to train everyone in your company, nor do you want everyone stumbling in the dark.


MadMango
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
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[Chapstick]

MadMango,
I could write a whole paper about how we do our drawings but this may help understand the issue at hand. Simulation Software. We work with some automation vendors who do nothing but simulations. My comapny likes it as you can imagine. My issue at hand is to determine if line design (with end result being a simulation, even a static one) can be done simultaneously.

As I'm writing this report I think I'm going to lean toward just using Wireframe models within Autocad... dunno just yet but we dont really need the parametric functions of solid modeling...

When it comes to simulation software I'm uneducated... but I'm gettin there

 

[MintJulep]

You state that your customers "like 3D representation". This is kind of a no-brainer. Everybody likes 3D representations. Are your customers willing to pay for them?

Who is responsible for the interfaces between equipment being correct? If you are responsible, and you are generating 3D layouts based on vendor's 2D layouts you may be assuming additional liability for the project.

If your clients want you to provide 3D layouts you need to be very careful in defining the scope of your responsibility and price your work accordingly.

Of course you (or your client) could add a requirement that all equipment suppliers provide 3D models in a common format. You are unlikely to actually ever get them, and it will probably increase the total project cost.

 

[Chapstick]

MintJulep,
I honestly dont know if we are going to charge a premium for our work or not. I think if it went true simulation, yes.

My job is to develop the line, there are a lot of interfaces to deal with, you are correct. It is our duty, as a design/consulting firm, to get the general layout complete and define equipment locations. So its fairly vague. The interface responsibility falls in the vendors hands.

When we get an actual job we then take our proposal layout and take it to the 'mechanical package' level. Here we say company A is responsible to interface with company B.

Thats about as far as we get into the actual detail, but each engineer here also knows what can be done and what cannot. I couldnt do this work without all of my design experience.

I think im going to make my report revolve around this question: What do we expect to visually see on paper and how will we be using the model itself?

 

[MintJulep]

Chapstick,

You've lost me a bit with the term "proposal layout". Is this a layout that you develop while you are bidding for a job with a client ("if you hire us to develop your new line we will work to get you this.&quot?

How detailed is this proposal? Do you go to specific equipment manufacture and model, or just generic device name?

At this stage, having the ability to produce color 3D renderings and animated fly-throughs can have significant "wow" factor with potential clients. Obviously you can't overtly bill for this.

Once you have a job, does your scope of work include checking vendor drawings and ensuring that the interfaces will work? If so, creating solid models from the vendor drawings will, as a necessary consequence, force a very detailed drawing review, as any ommissions or inconsistencies will raise questions by the modeler. This is something that you could market and charge a premium for.

It seems to me that if going to 3D does not directly or indirectly help the bottom line then it is not the thing to do.

 

[Chapstick]

Will try and keep this simple...

A customer comes to us to design a packaging line. Sometimes we charge for this and sometimes we do not. First we open the building drawing and start placing the core equipment (would be vendor drawings or ones we clean up). Second we would run all conveyor of various types to connect the line.. not getting into detail. If we have platforms and mezzanines we draw them in, roughly.

At that point we call the proposal done and price it. If the job gets the go ahead we produce a 'mechanical package' using the same drawing. This package is what goes to the individual vendors to design from. Our layout is very top level and it is the contractors job (ie. conveyor people)to make their stuff work.

We sell design and effeciency, its the contractors job (within reason) to make the integration. For the most part we stay in contact with the vendors so we know they can make it work. So is our drawing detailed? No... Is it accurate enough for the vendors to design from? Yes

Believe me, In my 10+ years of cad work this is a unique application for 3D... cause we only need it for its most simple purpose.

 

[Chapstick]

I will add that our "Proposal" drawing is the same drawing we use in the "Mechanical Package". But in the package we include some of the detail, ie. section views from the contractors. Sometimes we do create these as necessary but only if it will aid the installers. Other things we add are utilities, wireways, plant modifications, ect.

 

[HDS]

It sounds like you are looking more for pretty pictures than detailed geometry to build from. You would probably be fine with a few models that you modify in size and color for different projects. You might be more interested in a software package focused on graphics instead of cad. Something like Form Z, Alias, 3D studio max is better at rendering and animation. I have seen animations produced with these packages that show a bottle going down the line filling up and going in a box. This type of work doesn’t really add any value just impresses people.

 

[Chapstick]

We work with a lot of vendors, one came in the other day... Bastian Material Handling. Below is a link to some of their work and they use a simulation software called AutoMod... think thats it. Anyways, these guys do great simulations but thats it.

http://www.bmhcorp.com/bmhcorp/webmedia/Simulations/index.htm

I appreciate the responses you all have contributed. I have been talking with the SolidWorks people and I'm leaning in this direction. Sometimes we do need to get detailed and management here i think wasts our simulations/presentations to be more detailed that what BMH is doing.

I have my report complete so its the waiting game for now. Again, thanks for all the input.

 

[bradphillips]

I would lean toward SolidWorks too.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

A 3D package (like Solidworks, SolidEdge, etc) will give you detailed Bills of Material which pure graphics programs will not. They also have the ability to store cost, lead time, weight, etc as attributes in the model which can be of great help when Project Planning or Costing the job.


CorBlimeyLimey
Barrie, Ontario
faq559-863