Pump Building

[aiwa7777]

For projects in Northern Canada, where temperature can reach -40C and there is a lot of snow and rain.

(a) Can pump with electric motor driver be installed outdoors ?

(b) Is a building absolutely required for pumps (other than for comfort of operating and maintenance people) ?

(c) If we order a pump for installing inside a building then building is deleted from project scope, what changes will be requierd in pump to be installed outdoors?

Thank you

 

[flexibox]

I visited Northern Sweden a few years back and went to a mine site where to my surprise all equipment was operating inside a building. I did not see one pump outside. You may get a more sprecific answer that gives reasons why not to.

sorry I cannot help any further I live in +40C temperatures

 

[Pumpsonly]

think for your self what would happen to water at -40C. You will need heat tracing the pump and piping even at indoor.

 

[BigInch]

What happens to oil and grease and just about anything else isn't much better either.


Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand’ ... Book of Ecclesiasticus

 

[ports394]

Rust and corrosion will be an issue. On top of that lubrication and oiling will be very difficult on your bearings.

at -40C, let's say you're not pumping water, with oil your viscosity will be so high that you'd be better off hiring a fleet of mountain goats to drag buckets up hill. If it's water, make snow cones.

 

[ccfowler]

Two words fully describe any attempts to justify such an outdoor installation as you are suggesting: FALSE ECONOMY

Valuable advice from a professor many years ago: First, design for graceful failure. Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs. Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.

 

[micalbrch]

In addition to what others already wrote keep in mind that most common metals get briddle at such a low temperature.

 

[aiwa7777]

Dear All,
Thank you for your response.

I forgot to mention that if the system is properly insulated and heat traced, can the pump and motor be installed outside ?

Thank you

 

[MikeHalloran]

If the pump needs to be replaced or serviced, can they wait until spring?

If not, the technicians who have to do it will be coming after you.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ccfowler]

aiwa7777,

I repeat, FALSE ECONOMY!

How much will you save after additional lost production time when repairs take excessively long due to having to erect a functional shelter so that repairs can be made? How much will each episode of erecting a shelter cost compared to building a proper enclosure in the first place? How much is saved by having to get past all of the encumberances associated with the necessary heat tracing when repairs are required?

From your questions and comments, it seems that you must be dealing with people who haven't a clue about cold weather, snow, blizzards, ice, .... If they insist on such foolishness, the best you can do is to be sure that they are fully informed of the potential problems. Let them deal with the consequences of their cost saving measures.

Valuable advice from a professor many years ago: First, design for graceful failure. Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs. Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.

 

[TenPenny]

You will likely find that if the pump ever shuts down in winter, you won't be able to restart it until June. You may not be able to find it until June, depending on how much snow the area gets.

If a 'building' is not wanted, consider a shipping container. That's typically what they do in Labrador with the mine dewatering pumps.

 

[ports394]

Tenpenny, great idea. Shipping containers can be bought very cheap at used equipment depots.

Think of all the work involved with heat tracing and insulating all of your lines. What happens when a middle section of pipe is damaged and may need replacing. You could have to cut/rewire a huge section of heat tracing to remove that bad section of pipe etc. And overall it's an encumbrance.
Heat tracing, if not properly used can also boil the stagnant water in lines. Consider that.

 

[Pumpsonly]

Even with pump room, heat tracing is still a must for temp. below
4C if it is for water. Pump room also need to be heated.

 

[JJPellin]

I live and work in Minnesota. We rarely get down to -40°C, but it does happen. Our refinery specifications use -40 °F as the design minimum temperature for all equipment. Not only can pumps be installed outside at this temperature, it is absolutely necessary in an oil refinery. It is dangerous to place pumps in light hydrocarbon service inside a building. All such buildings in our plant have been demolished. All of our pumps in hydrocarbon service (approximately 1400 of them) are outside. Heat tracing is necessary. Good insulation is necessary. We only purchase lube oils that have a pour point of -50 °F or lower. Motor grease is not a problem. The oil contained in the grease also has a pour point this low.

Ductile brittle transition temperature issues do not come up. It is impossible to start a pump with full pressure without warming it up. So, it if is that cold, it won’t be at full stress. And if it is at full stress, it won’t be that cold. We have had to make exceptions in our specifications to allow for materials with a transition temperature as high as -35 °F.

Our mechanics work outside in these conditions every winter. You dress for the cold and take appropriate breaks. I have performed full overhauls on large gas compressors under these conditions with no building. I once aligned a two case dry screw compressor at -30 °F actual temperature. I insist on doing alignments at ambient temperature. So, we took down the temporary shelter, shut off the steam heaters and did the alignment at ambient conditions.

This is not a false economy for an oil refinery. It is a safety imperative.


Johnny Pellin

 

[BigInch]

Every one of Northern Natural Gas compressors from Wyoming to Kansas to Minnesota is in a building. All of the Saudi Strategic Petroleum Reserve hydrocarbon pumps are not only in a building, but in a building located in confined spaces underground. Danger is relative and a matter of how you design and operate. I'd have thought you'd have much more danger from freezing some employee trying to work outside in -40 than you would from lighting up a properly installed pump inside a building.

Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand’ ... Book of Ecclesiasticus

 

[macmil]

and put an overhead crane in the building.
Without a building, the pump will run until it doesn't and then if you can find it, it won't run again till spring. I know of one company in Edmonton who still can't find about 100 tons of steel in their yard (under the snow )

 

[JJPellin]

I am surprised at some of the comments. It is not particularly difficult to maintain pumps outside in this sort of weather. I have been doing it for the past 22 years. As I already noted, all of our hydrocarbon pumps in the refinery are outside. In addition, we have pipelines that deliver our crude oil from the tar sands formations of Canada. I have been to a couple of those pipeline stations. Not only are the pumps not in a building, they don't even have a roof over them. I am not sure what people from warmer climates think that it is like up here. But, I would rather work on a pump at -30 °F in Minnesota than at 110 °F in west Texas.

Snow does not build up around running pumps since they are pumping hot oil. Our average pump is probably over 300 °F product temperature. If we were talking about a single pump or a small group of pumps, it would be one thing. But in a refinery, we have thousands of pumps. It would be impractical to put up heated buildings with gas detection, fire suppression and bridge cranes over all of these.

I am not talking about some theoretical possibility. Our plant is built this way. I was outside all night last night in a blowing snow storm overhauling a two case, 4000 HP Clark centrifugal gas compressor. We have windbreaks on two sides of the deck and a roof over our heads. Otherwise, we are outside.


Johnny Pellin

 

[BigInch]

I think it depends on operator preference and practice, strength of the health and safety department and probably whether the work force is union or not. Sun shades in hot climates keep the tools from heating up to 180F.

When working at extreme temperatures, in either direction, I wouldn't have much faith in that last gasket getting installed correctly. Its a well proven fact that extreme working conditions have their effects on performance, both human and equipment. Don't you really think that it's simply a case of how far any company is willing to push work time, safety and performance limits in the face of heat, cold, noise, radiation, stress, lack of oxygen or whatever against the cost of providing work conditions within the average worker comfort zones. There is no question that work can be performed in freezing, weightless, no visibility, high radiation environments when it has to be performed there, leaving the questions, "Why would anybody want to do it that way? and "What's the advantage?". Is it costs ... again?

Let your acquaintances be many, but your advisors one in a thousand’ ... Book of Ecclesiasticus

 

[TenPenny]

JJPelin, I understand your comments, and I agree with them. However, it does somewhat depend on what the pump service is.

If the pump is pumping water, an additional concern is to find a way to drain it automatically in case of shutdown, as it doesn't take long to freeze up.

 

[ports394]

JJPellin, you have the advantage of pumping hydrocarbons in an oil refinery. Your fluid won't freeze below 0F. And your fluid, when hot, is well over 212F. Both are to your advantage because the pump generates a lot of ambient heat and melts things around in.

From what the OP is doing, I understood him to be pumping water. To me, that's a very different ball game. While he can run similar materials (possibly-corrosion issues?), his fluid properties just aren't the same. That's why I think most of us are leaning on the safer alternatives.

My lab is a Class 1 Division 2 work space. But it's also a food-pharmaceutical environment. So having a building is a must, even though I am working with alcohols and other solvents. I can't have my tanks trying to cool down to -20-40F in winter, while I'm trying to run a hot process.
I'm located a bit east of you, in Illinois.

We're all giving him advice based on our own experiences.