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QA/QC/Testing 3
- Thread starter QCE
- Start date
Seems like I've answered a question similar to this in eng-tips.com before...
Quality Assurance: activities designed to ensure development/maintenance process meets requirements - QA is focused on process - QA is focused on prevention of defects in a system
Quality Control: activities designed to evaluate product for conformance to requirements - QC is focused on product - QC is focused on finding defects (appraisal) in a system
Testing: process designed to find defects or confirm product meets requirement criteria; testing is typically appraisal, though when performed as part of a DOE, it can be considered prevention
Quality Assurance: activities designed to ensure development/maintenance process meets requirements - QA is focused on process - QA is focused on prevention of defects in a system
Quality Control: activities designed to evaluate product for conformance to requirements - QC is focused on product - QC is focused on finding defects (appraisal) in a system
Testing: process designed to find defects or confirm product meets requirement criteria; testing is typically appraisal, though when performed as part of a DOE, it can be considered prevention
Quality Assurance: making sure the customer gets what is expected.
Quality Control: eliminating (by monitoring, testing, & adjusting) the variation of a process that causes quality problems.
Testing: one of the methods used to ensure the product is conforming to customer expectations.
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- #4
The world is getting sucked into some form of QA documentation nightmare.
It is good to remember that it is the 'quality' of the product that is important - that it meets the requirements. This is after all our bread and butter if we cannot consistently produce conforming product the company will go to the wall. This was why 'Quality Assurance' was initially introduced.
They are two differnt activities but should not be separated - QA/QC. Adherence to the The Quality Assurance Management system should ensure acceptable product, QC & testing are means of verifying that the product meets the requirements.
However, see how little importance seems to be given to verification of the product in the latest ISO 9001:2000 8.2.4.
I find that currently, in major oil & gas projects, QA auditing is moving away from the importance of the product. I see many examples of audits resulting in NCR's highlighting, for example a problem with the organisation charts, but failing to address the fact that out of specification product is being produced on the construction site.
Regards,
Quadswift
It is good to remember that it is the 'quality' of the product that is important - that it meets the requirements. This is after all our bread and butter if we cannot consistently produce conforming product the company will go to the wall. This was why 'Quality Assurance' was initially introduced.
They are two differnt activities but should not be separated - QA/QC. Adherence to the The Quality Assurance Management system should ensure acceptable product, QC & testing are means of verifying that the product meets the requirements.
However, see how little importance seems to be given to verification of the product in the latest ISO 9001:2000 8.2.4.
I find that currently, in major oil & gas projects, QA auditing is moving away from the importance of the product. I see many examples of audits resulting in NCR's highlighting, for example a problem with the organisation charts, but failing to address the fact that out of specification product is being produced on the construction site.
Regards,
Quadswift
Sounds like it's time for a new internal auditing team if all they are concerned about are org charts.
MadMango
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MadMango
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HI,
we are buying some chemicals( Sulphuric acid H2S04 and caustic soda(sodium hydroxide), my question is do we need to appointe a third party inspector before we accept the material as they are going to be shiped from other country.
please let me know thanks
we are buying some chemicals( Sulphuric acid H2S04 and caustic soda(sodium hydroxide), my question is do we need to appointe a third party inspector before we accept the material as they are going to be shiped from other country.
please let me know thanks
Baselaib, if the chemical composition was considered to be critical in a process, I might require independent testing of the materials before my supplier shipped the chemicals to me. An independent lab is kind of equivalent to a 3rd party inspector. I typically would not do a "source inspection" because one is relying on the processes & equipment of the chemical supplier whereas submitting a sample to an external testing lab is - well, independent & not like the fox guarding the henhouse. It really depends on process criticality of the chemicals. I don't know your processes so I cannot tell you what I would do in your place.
Are you in QA/QC? Does your customer have any requirements that need to be flowed down? Perhaps the customer requirements hold the answer to your query.
Make sure the supplier includes an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) & knows the applicable laws for shipping methods - or engages a reputable carrier who is familiar with applicable laws in the shipping & receiving countries.
Are you in QA/QC? Does your customer have any requirements that need to be flowed down? Perhaps the customer requirements hold the answer to your query.
Make sure the supplier includes an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) & knows the applicable laws for shipping methods - or engages a reputable carrier who is familiar with applicable laws in the shipping & receiving countries.
quadswift (Petroleum) wrote: The world is getting sucked into some form of QA documentation nightmare.
If QA/QC activities were not documented, they didn't happen (& you usually have no way to prove the activities happened....& then you have an upset client base....due to the lack of objective evidence...)
If QA/QC activities were not documented, they didn't happen (& you usually have no way to prove the activities happened....& then you have an upset client base....due to the lack of objective evidence...)
- Thread starter
- #10
I believe what was meant by the qoute:
The world is getting sucked into some form of QA documentation nightmare.
Is that more emphasis is on the paper work than on the quality.
Most project managers don't care if the quality is good as long as the project gets done on time and someone will sign the quality control report saying it is "good enough" not necessarily "good".
QCE
The world is getting sucked into some form of QA documentation nightmare.
Is that more emphasis is on the paper work than on the quality.
Most project managers don't care if the quality is good as long as the project gets done on time and someone will sign the quality control report saying it is "good enough" not necessarily "good".
QCE
Sorry for the delay, have been on 3 weeks holiday.
You are spot on QCE.That is exactly what I meant.
I am just an old, disillusioned Project Quality Manager, who started out in the 'quality' game in 1964 analysing / testing chemicals and then inspection and QA in engineering, nuclear and oil & gas projects.
In the 1979 version of BS5750 it stated something like 'procedures should be developed to control activities where the absence of procedures may be detrimental to the quality of the product or service'. That was the intent in those days.
In the world of fixed price, downsizing, rationalising, cut-backs, just-in-time, out-sourcing etc, many places are 'proceduralised' up to the arm-pits. The quality of the product / service is not always there. (How many times do you read in the newspapers - 'Due to our rigorous QA/QC procedures, we have identified a problem and we are having a product recall. The QA/QC procedures didn't find / prevent the problem, the customers found it!)
On one of our projects some pumps have just been 're-exported' back from a desert location (and the customs problems involved is a nightmare in itself)to the manufacturer as they did not work on commissioning / start-up. This is delaying the start-up of of a gas plant with the potential to cost squillions of dollars per day.
We have also received on another site 15,000 piping bolts in the 'black' condition when coating was specified.
One contractor is altering the bolt-holes in the sliding feet of a vessel as they do not fit the plinth installed by the 'civils' at site, even though templates were supplied.I could give you loads of examples from a lifetime in projects.
The above contractors have pretty ISO 9000 certificates on the wall and lots of nice procedures. The person who 'audited' them and issued the certificate showed that they have addressed the elements of ISO 9000 requirements but it does not follow that the project / product / service will meet the requirements.The 'auditor' knows nothing of that!
Rant over for now,
best regards,
Quadswift
You are spot on QCE.That is exactly what I meant.
I am just an old, disillusioned Project Quality Manager, who started out in the 'quality' game in 1964 analysing / testing chemicals and then inspection and QA in engineering, nuclear and oil & gas projects.
In the 1979 version of BS5750 it stated something like 'procedures should be developed to control activities where the absence of procedures may be detrimental to the quality of the product or service'. That was the intent in those days.
In the world of fixed price, downsizing, rationalising, cut-backs, just-in-time, out-sourcing etc, many places are 'proceduralised' up to the arm-pits. The quality of the product / service is not always there. (How many times do you read in the newspapers - 'Due to our rigorous QA/QC procedures, we have identified a problem and we are having a product recall. The QA/QC procedures didn't find / prevent the problem, the customers found it!)
On one of our projects some pumps have just been 're-exported' back from a desert location (and the customs problems involved is a nightmare in itself)to the manufacturer as they did not work on commissioning / start-up. This is delaying the start-up of of a gas plant with the potential to cost squillions of dollars per day.
We have also received on another site 15,000 piping bolts in the 'black' condition when coating was specified.
One contractor is altering the bolt-holes in the sliding feet of a vessel as they do not fit the plinth installed by the 'civils' at site, even though templates were supplied.I could give you loads of examples from a lifetime in projects.
The above contractors have pretty ISO 9000 certificates on the wall and lots of nice procedures. The person who 'audited' them and issued the certificate showed that they have addressed the elements of ISO 9000 requirements but it does not follow that the project / product / service will meet the requirements.The 'auditor' knows nothing of that!
Rant over for now,
best regards,
Quadswift
Testing : target is products ,
by testing ,inspection, checking the "products" is good
Control : target is process ,
by setup the process condition to make sure the output "products" will be good.
( sometimes , Control also including testing )
QA : target is customer ,
Make sure those combinations , control,testing ..etc. , in your system have enough capability to provide a good products to customer without somethings missed
by testing ,inspection, checking the "products" is good
Control : target is process ,
by setup the process condition to make sure the output "products" will be good.
( sometimes , Control also including testing )
QA : target is customer ,
Make sure those combinations , control,testing ..etc. , in your system have enough capability to provide a good products to customer without somethings missed
I perfectly agree with Quadswift.
Just to add one more example: my first job, years ago (just after University and before coming back to Mechanics) was for an ERP Consulting Company... while they were writing Quality procedures and getting ISO 9000 Certifications, they were giving us false Curricula Vitae to study, in order to play the role of Super-Experts during the interviews with potential Customers...! ;-)
I think some Certifications in Industry are becoming like fashion in clothes; the direct contact and technical information exchanges between Customers and suppliers shall be never be replaced by "pieces of paper" only.
Bye, 'NGL
Just to add one more example: my first job, years ago (just after University and before coming back to Mechanics) was for an ERP Consulting Company... while they were writing Quality procedures and getting ISO 9000 Certifications, they were giving us false Curricula Vitae to study, in order to play the role of Super-Experts during the interviews with potential Customers...! ;-)
I think some Certifications in Industry are becoming like fashion in clothes; the direct contact and technical information exchanges between Customers and suppliers shall be never be replaced by "pieces of paper" only.
Bye, 'NGL
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