Quality of Structural Drafting Work 6

[Atomic25]

If you have technical structural drafstmen working for/with you, what type of quality work are they putting out? aka, how much hand holding do you have to do to get a set of drawings out that are understandable and free of a dimensional nightmare? I'm trying to gauge whether or not I'm expecting too much.

I recently changed jobs and I'm shocked to find so many problems with the sets these guys are putting together. They require the engineers to basically babysit the draftsmen. Should I really have to go through the set and make sure dimensions are snapped to column grid lines? Spelling errors galore are corrected? Section cuts and detail markers easy to follow? I'm almost thinking of leaving this company because of the liability to my PE license. They just had a $30,000 claim (not on my license thank god) because they couldn't get an elementary steel dimension correct.

Any words of wisdom are welcome.

 

[Lion06]

We routinely find dimension lines snapped to the wrong place or spelling mistakes. That is part of the "checking" process, though, isn't it? I would say I find this more often with details than plans.
When I hand a detail off, I have it drawn on engineering paper. I get it back from CAD and I check it, not only for everything that I had in the detail, but I also try to look at it "fresh" to ensure the original design makes sense. It is usually pretty easy to pick up spelling errors - I don't see this as such a burden.

 

[JStephen]

In the little dealing with draftsmen, I have found a pretty wide range of abilities and care.

I would be concerned, not just with how things are, but if it looks like they will be improving. If you're working with new people, there's hope. If they've been there for years, it may be time to move on.

Part of it is knowing what expectations are. If you're expected to do a perfect drawing, you'll look at it accordingly. If you get to thinking "Well the checking will fix that so I won't look at anything twice", you wind up with a mess.

Part may depend on the workload as well- they may be shuffling work through so fast they don't care.

 

[Atomic25]

We're talking about draftsmen with 30 years of experience who, for example, don't know how to set up a foundation schedule. Or know how to call out T/Steel elevations.

I'm just trying to define the boundary between normal checking and having to take 3 days to rework entire sets because they make no sense to anyone.

 

[UcfSE]

That sounds like one year of experience done 30 times. I would expect a lot of checking for new draftsmen, not for 30-year guys.

 

[hokie66]

What do you do? There are good draftsmen and bad ones. There are good engineers and bad ones.

 

[jike]

This type of problem exists in some firms where the expectations of that individual is either not made clear and/or not monitored. I find that most people will generally live up to what is expected of them. Keep in mind that all of us, at some point in time, do not perform up to our best. We all deal with personal problems that may affect our performance.

That being said, it is my expectation of drafters and designers that dimensional accuracy and having sufficient dimensions to build from is their responsibility. With computer x-references, dimensional accuracy plus coordination between disciplines should be a relatively task. The weak link is the human decision making process.

 

[csd72]

Atomic25,

I have worked with all types from those who you give a beam size and a number of bolts to those that can only copy your sketches onto drawings. Unfortunately with the structural engineering industries reluctance to invest in training the later are becoming more common.

There are 2 issues here, one as you pointed out is the greater potential for mistakes, the second is the fact that you are less productive because you are spending so much time going over their work.

csd

 

[Qshake]

Part of the process could be in the quality plan.

Draftsmen/detailers should know what the expectations are and be able to reference old sets for assistance, if necessary at all.

From there a working print is made and a careful and proud detailer will check it before it is given to the chief detailer or engineer. Following a working print, a quality print is made and checked by the engineer or engineering supervisor.

Few mistakes make it past that control.

Excessive working prints is cause for allowing the detailer permanent vacation.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[DRC1]

Yeah, sounds like a serious problem. I do my drafting myself, but have had really god guys do it for me. Top notch guys should be asking you questions. If it is a drafting department, talk to your manager. Don't complain, but ask if there is some miscommunication. Maybe they are used to getting certin information or expecting certian procedures sombody forgot to mention to you. If the manager does not see the problem, that is the problem. There are alot of firms doing sloppy work (including branches of well respected firms) and this may be one. Time to move on.
One final note, unless you are acontract employee, your prfessional liability should be protected by the corperation. If it is not, this is not a good sign either.

 

[BigH]

To me it is part of the checking package - I see the same mistakes alot - many times it is use of different abbreviations from one drawing to another in a design set (example: Typ. vs Typical; concrete vs conc.). A particular design set of drawings should have consistency between terms and abbreviations.
See:

http://www.structuremag.org/archives/2004/march/strdrawings.pdf

 

[DRC1]

Great article

 

[csd72]

I have worked with draftsmen so bad that drawings sometimes came back to me with more mistakes than were on the check print!

DRC1 made a good point, if the problem is with the managements attitude (apathy) to this then you have no choice but to leave, if the problem is an individual then you need to push to change their attitude.

csd

 

[MikeHalloran]

I've worked alongside a _lot_ of drafters and designers who transitioned into AutoCAD without ever taking a lesson or reading a book. It was a point of pride for some. All could make a drawing that _looked_ good ... but God help you if you got stuck making a drawing for a mating part, or making a 3D model from their stuff, or "Just use this as a template; should only take 20 minutes...".








Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ChrisKn]

I understand where u are coming from on this one, I've recently changed jobs and am still trying to feel out out the ACAD techs ability in my department. I guess part of the problem for me is that I've been producing my own drawings in Autocad for years and I'm just a bit lazy on my markups because I'm so use to doing the drawings myself. I go thru that dilema on every job..where it takes me as long to mark things up as it would just to make the corrections myself. It gets frustating at times..but i guess i will make the transition.

Chris

 

[shin25]

I have a whole segmental bridge shop drawing details being generated under my supervision. Thaks God I have a quality draftsman who is doing the entire superstructure. If I point out few mistakes to him, he can carry out the corrections in his future drawings. One more thing he always does is checks the drawing on his own before giving it to me.

I also have less experienced drafters working for me. I had to spend much more time helping the less experienced one who drew the substructure to have the drawings done the way I wanted them to be.

I have learnt something that if a drafter is not completely an ediot, if you keep them in your close supervision they can deliver up to your expectetions.

So, the key is, you need to make clear what your expectations are and provide adequate supervision to have your expections come to reality.

 

[BigH]

shin25 makes a great point. The drafter (read that as whether the old way or via AutoCAD) must check his work before he hands it to the Engineer. If he doesn't, time to find someone who will. As for ChrisKn - it will probably get easier with time if you work with the same staff as they will usually clue in on what your "style" is and adjust.

 

[whyun]

Drafters need to be properly trained by engineers or senior drafters who know their stuff. Without proper training, you end up with a mediocre middle-aged drafter at a salary higher than you're willing to pay.

Ability of the individual drafters are very closely correlated to your company's philosophy and the ratio of engineer to drafters. With a very low engineer to drafter ratio, you expect drafters to think and create. A high engineer to drafter ratio, engineers have to provide much more information.

Regardless of the existing company philosophy on such topic, I attempt to implement my own. Assess the current situation and decide whether you need more engineers or hire capable drafters. After sufficient number of attempts, if the company does not grant your wishes, plan to move on.

The essential function of a drafter is to communicate ideas ultimately on paper. Spelling, grammar, ability to understand structural/construction terms, ability to check for completeness are some of the qualities that are more important than proficiency in AutoCAD.

 

[Galambos]

with all due respect, whyun and others, do you believe that the quality of draftsmen is something worth leaving a company for? i'm asking as a new PE that has worked at only 2 firms. your response would be appreciated.

 

[Atomic25]

I think it really depends on the engineer. Although you are likely covered by your firm's insurance, it is a bit unnerving to continuously worry about drafting errors while we have enough on our plates. Plus I think it's a matter of pride...you bust your butt to get a well designed building, but if the drawings look like junk its usually the engineer who is blamed.