question on ABET accreditation 3

[Lion06]

I am having a bit of a problem that I would like some input on. I have a B.S. from an ABET accredited program. I have applied to a graduate program (at a different university). I have been told that I am seriously deficient in terms of an ABET undergrad program leading to a master of science engineering program.
Is there really a difference between a "regular" undergrad degree and one leading to a master of science degree?
I thought that as long as it was accredited by ABET that everything was fine. I have had (2) structural analysis courses including analysis by matrix methods, (2) concrete classes, (2) steel courses, a foundations course, a very intensive senior project, etc....
I have looked at the undergrad program for the school I am applying to and didn't see anything to warrant (2) years of additional undergrad engineering courses.
I must say I am very upset and disappointed as I was looking forward to starting the M.S. program this fall. I can still take (2) classes, but I have no intention of taking (2) years of full-time undergrad work in addition to their graduate engineering requirements.
Has anyone else ever encountered this?

 

[JAE]

You had more structural classes than I did in my undergrad program and I got into a graduate program without any trouble....of course that was in 1980....but the university I went to is in the top 40 of the US News & World Report rankings each year.

 

[sundale]

I agree with JAE. It sounds like you had a good deal of structural classes.

It sounds like they are putting the squeeze on you for more tuition $$$.

Recall that the typical US university exists to:
1. Sell football tickets
2. Obtain research grants and funding
3. Get tuition money

Any higher education you actually obtain is a beneficial side effect.

 

[jpankask]

Two years sounds very excessive for an ABET accredited curriculum. Was your undergrad BS a civil engineering technology degree (accredited ABET-TAC rather than ABET-EAC)? While there is some variation among the different programs, all ABET accredited Engineering programs would have the same basic requirements and prepare you for a MS program. I could see maybe two or three deficient classes but two years worth is really hard to swallow. However, I did my MS at the same university where I got my BS (in another related program) so I don't have experience shopping around MS programs. Have you checked with other universities? What do they say?

That has to be really disappointing but don't let it stop you.

 

[Lion06]

For fear of giving away my actual identity to anyone who might be in my immediate area, I won't say the name of my program, but it was an engineering technology degree. That being said, only (5) classes were engineering technology classes (CE materials, structural analysis I, fluid flow, foundations, and construction management I), the rest were engineering classes (steel I&II, concrete I&II, Advanced structural analysis, ...).
My degree is actually in structural design, not civil engineering (I had no transportation classes, or water resources classes, etc.... only structural analysis and design classes), so I am hoping that part of the problem is that they haven't realized I intend to focus on structural engineering in their program. I have several emails into them and other programs in the area to see if they will have the same requirements.

 

[JAE]

Well it may be that the term "technology" is scaring them a bit. But since your degree is accredited, whether you have a BS in Civil Engr or a BS in Engineering Technologies shouldn't matter.

I would emphasize to them, as you suggest, what explicit degree program you are seeking and even request an interview with the department head.

 

[SWComposites]

I agree, go talk to the department head in person. Bring your transcipt and the detailed course descriptions from your undergrad classes. You should be able to negotiate a much more reasonable amount of "extra" classes to take (unless the university where you are applying for the MS program doesn't have a hig regard for your undergrad school, in which case you may have a difficult time). Good luck.

 

[spciesla]

One hiccup that I see is that you may not be able to "negotiate" with the department head, as the prerequisites may be determined by the graduate college. However, I would think that it is worthwile to discuss with the department head.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Find another graduate school.

There are plenty. If you hook up with a professor who will give you research work, then the formalities will mysteriously vanish - for the most part.

 

[jpankask]

Unfortunately, you are probably going to need to find a different program. I really doubt you will get much from talking with the department head but it might be worth a shot. There should also be a graduate program coordinator who is one of the professors, you may have a little more luck there.

In general, there are a lot of differences between a BS engineering accredited by ABET and a BS engineering technology accredited by ABET. There are two separate accrediting commissions and each requires different things. Technology degrees typically take algebra-based physics classes and much less theory. Engineering degrees require calculus-based physics and more theory type classes. If the graduate school you are applying to is not familiar with your undergraduate university or the structural design program, that may be where the hangup is. Also, if you didn't have the upper level theory classes in your program, that may be your deficiencies. The structural engineering MS programs I have looked at involve a lot of theory classes and are set up to take BS civil engineering/mechanical engineering graduates. Is the grad program giving you a list of your deficient classes?

 

[Lion06]

The program head I have been in contact with is hesitant to give me specifics until I apply. I have my online application filled out and recommendations sent, but am hesitant to send in my fee and actually submit the application knowing that I will have to essentially repeat all of my undergrad engineering classes.
I have looked at ABET, the difference between the engineering and engineering technology degree is the number of branches you must be proficient in. CE requires proficiency in (4) branches, ET requires (1)- (3) branches dpending on the type. I took calculus based physics specifically for this reason - I knew I wanted to pursue a graduate degree at some point and knew that would be required.
Additionally, my program had (2) options - Structural design and construction management. The only engineering technology classes were the ones the CM's had to take. The rest of the classes, as noted in one of m previous posts in this thread were ENGINEERING (not engineering technology) classes.
Finally, something that is bothering me a bit is that he is willing to let me take an advanced reinforced concrete class this fall (graduate level) but will then expect me to take an undergrad concrete class to fulfill a "deficiency". I have to think that if he really thinks I am deficient he would not let me take this grad level class before the deficiency class on the same subject matter - concrete.
Any opinions?

 

[tygerdawg]

jpankask is right, and I concur from my experience on a curriculum committee of a school offering 2- and 4-year Engineering Technology degrees. In the eyes of the accreditation board, there is a world of difference between BS Engineering and BS Engineering Technology.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Advanced Robotics & Automation Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[jpankask]

It doesn't sound like you will make much headway. If they haven't already seen your transcript, some things may change when they compare your classes with their prerequisites. However, as you have found out, they won't do that until you actually apply, send in your trasncript and send in your money.

I had a similar situation when I graduated. After I started working, I got a great idea to get an MBA at the local university. After taking 12 hours of prerequisites to apply to the program, the program head told me that I would need to retake classes I had already taken at my undergraduate university (after I had talked with him before taking the 12 hours and he indicated all would be fine). I quickly switched to a MS in engineering from my alma mater and have been very glad I did. At the least, I think you face an uphill battle getting into this program from the sound of it. If the application fee is not too high, it may be worth it just to see exactly how many classes you need to take. It may turn out to be really only a few. Good luck!

 

[UcfSE]

If your degree is in engineering tech, not engineering, you're just going to have to pay your dues. They are not the same or there would be no need for the distinction.

You may run into this problem again when you apply for the PE. Many states will not let techs sit for the PE.

 

[65Roses]

UcfSE there is truth to what you say but not all ET programs are weak. faq404-1322

Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit

http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/

to learn why!

 

[Lion06]

I am already certain that I can sit for the PE. I have also taken FE with no problem.
The BIGGEST distinction between an engineering degree and an engineering technology degree is one of breadth. This is very clear from the ABET website. Engineering degrees require proficiency in (4) fields of civil engineering, while technology degrees vary from (1) to (3) fields.
Also, while ET degrees may not require calculus based physics, I did take them. ET degrees generally have less intensive design courses as well, but again, all but (5) and the most important were ENGINEERING courses, not ET courses. Additionally, because the breadth of my program was much more narrow, I took more structural classes than 90% of undergraduates from a traditional civil ENGINEERING program.
My undergrad provided:
1. structural analysis I & II - moment distribution, influence lines, virtual work, analysis by matrix methods, castigliano's method's, etc...

2. concrete I & II- beam design for flexure and shear, column, and beam column design (including slender columns), serviceability checks, shearwall design, intrto to prestressed

3. Steel I & II - Beam design, tension/compression member design, beam-column design, bolted and welded connections, baseplates, beam bearing plates

4. foundations - all shallow foundations (strip, spread, combined, strapped, mats), reatining wall design, intro to settlement

5. Very intensive senior project which involed design of a one-story warehouse building (less a lot of detailing. A lot of detailing was required, but it was mostly concerned with member and connection design, diaphragm design, lateral resisting system design.

6. I also took surveying, soils, fluids, statics, dynamics, mechanics of materials, etc....

 

[65Roses]

What University did you attend? I ask because my situation is similar to yours except I'm in the mechanical field.

Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit

http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/

to learn why!

 

[Lion06]

I am a little hesitant to say, but a branch campus for a large state school in the east. What about you?

 

[MTPipeliner]

To echo what UcfSE said, there is a difference in the two programs otherwise there wouldn't be two programs.

It seems to me that the differences aren't well understood by everyone (on both sides of the fence). I also don't think most schools do a very good job of explaining to students what the differences are and how it may affect them when they graduate. As was mentioned the two are often treated differently by PE boards, grad schools, as well as employeers. I think it's unfortunate to see people graduate with a tech degree only to find out that some doors are closed that they thought would be open.

I'm not sure that I would have been prepared for my masters (structural) courses if I had come from a tech background. They were pretty theory intensive. I only know about tech programs from what I've heard from other guys, but they don't seem to be nearly as theory intensive.

Good luck with your application, in my experience schools aren't very flexible in changing their policies.

 

[65Roses]

In the southeastern state of which I graduated there is a law that only Unviveristy "X" can offer engineering degrees. (This does not pertain to private institutions though.) The university I attended attempted to change that but failed. What they did do was offer a degree that more closely resembled an enigineering degree but called it engineering technology. Basically you were given a choice within the degree program to follow either path but it was called the same thing in the end.

Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit

http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/

to learn why!