question on ABET accreditation 3

[Lion06]

I am having a bit of a problem that I would like some input on. I have a B.S. from an ABET accredited program. I have applied to a graduate program (at a different university). I have been told that I am seriously deficient in terms of an ABET undergrad program leading to a master of science engineering program.
Is there really a difference between a "regular" undergrad degree and one leading to a master of science degree?
I thought that as long as it was accredited by ABET that everything was fine. I have had (2) structural analysis courses including analysis by matrix methods, (2) concrete classes, (2) steel courses, a foundations course, a very intensive senior project, etc....
I have looked at the undergrad program for the school I am applying to and didn't see anything to warrant (2) years of additional undergrad engineering courses.
I must say I am very upset and disappointed as I was looking forward to starting the M.S. program this fall. I can still take (2) classes, but I have no intention of taking (2) years of full-time undergrad work in addition to their graduate engineering requirements.
Has anyone else ever encountered this?

 

[UcfSE]

If you can sit for the PE in your state, ok, great, wonderful. Then you won't have a problem in your state. You won't be able to get a PE in FL however. That's just an example, but if you wanted or needed a PE in FL for instance, then you'd have a problem. That's something to think about unless you only intend to practice within XX state for the rest of your life, and the only point I intended to make. If you've verified with your board that you can take the PE, good job for looking ahead of time.

You seem pretty adamant about telling us how much like engineering your tech courses were, or that you took engineering courses anyway. Why then did you get a tech degree instead of an engineering degree? I don't intend to argue the point because it's irrelevant, but it seems odd. Just making an observation. It's not like it matters here anyway, we aren't the school. You can appeal to their board, chair or committee, or go to a different school. It's pretty much cut and dried.

 

[Lion06]

UcfSE-
Since you ask.... I only made the point about my particular coursework because many people seemed to automatically talk poorly about it without knowing anything about it.
Not all of us (i.e. me) had the ability to go to school where ever we felt like it. I had certain life circumstances beyond my control that dictated where I needed to live. That being said, the program I attended was my only option. It is a branch of a large state school that is in the top 10 in US News, and as such my campus offered a number of structural engineering (CE) courses (of which I took as many as I could), but not a CE degree. I also have taken calc I, II, vector calc, diff. eq. I have taken calc based physics. The only difference between my ET degree and the CE degree for my state school is that I took (3) or (4) additional structural classes in place of transportation, water resources, etc... and also some (about 4 or 5) of my lower level engineering classes were ET classes. Specifically these classes were CE materials, Construction methods and materials, soils, structural analysis I, and foundations.
My initial post was simply to find out if anyone else had ever encountered anything similar. I had no idea that an ET degree would preclude me from some MS programs.

 

[jpankask]

StructuralEIT,
Most people here were not trying to talk poorly about your coursework without knowing anything about. You asked the question if there is really a difference between a "regular" undergrad degree and one leading to a MS. You state that you thought as long as it was ABET accredited, it was fine. What we are trying to tell you is yes, there is a difference and ABET accredited can mean two different things. If your degree was ABET-EAC accredited, you wouldn't be having this problem getting into a MS program. Taking the FE exam also does not mean you are in the clear to take the PE exam. If that is your ultimate goal, you should check with your state if you haven't already. Most people take the FE exam before they even graduate, it's not dependent on your degree. Only 30 states will license technology graduates without some extra classes (which it sounds like you may have taken).

That said, it sounds like if you have your heart and mind set on this university, you will need to apply and submit your transcript to be evaluated. It may be that your extra efforts to take more engineering classes instead of technology classes will mean your prerequisites will be minimal. The people you have been talking to are probably basing what they are telling you on previous people who have applied with a technology degree. Not talking poorly or judging your circumstances, just giving you the facts. Good luck!

 

[fasboater]

I have been looking at applying to graduate school as well. While our situations are different I a have ABET accredited CE degree, I found that most schools either have there undergrad degree accredited or there grad degree accredited. I make 2 points with this.

I guess my question is what’s your motivation for your MS degree?

If your motivation is just gaining knowledge then there are a lot of MS degrees that are not ABET accredit example online degrees.

Although if it is to gain the chance of licensure in some of these states the don’t allow you to sit with an ET degree I believe your really narrowing down the playing field.


On a side not my story is somewhat similar.

I was in a situation a lot like yours I started by earning an associate degree in ET which started my career as a detailer. I had a great job offer so I switched companies and my new company decided they wanted me to get my Bachelors degree in CE and they were paying, so I applied at the “closest and most accessible university” also the most expensive private college and found nothing from my previous college transferred. Well anyway I did stick it out and got through my first 2 ½ years and found that I got laid off from my position. So I looked into the local state university (trying to cut tuition costs from that high expense private college) and they were very clear that they offered an ET degree and that it might not open all the doors I was looking to open. So to make a long story short I stuck it out at the private college and finished my degree. I am very pleased that I did.

I did find out by talking to the chair of the CE program of the ABET accredited university where he basically told me if the previous program is not a program that meets their critiaria in our case the ET degree then they only look to see what classes may or may not transfer. The algebra based physics and all that bit me and nothing transferred. But I was told even if they were calc based then the objectives of each course would need to be reviewed. The last and final option that was shared with me is that if there are classes that didn’t transfer than they could possible be used as electives.

Hope this helps..

 

[Lion06]

My motivation is to gain knowledge. I quite honestly don't care about the degree. Additionally, while much has been made about the idea that someone with an ET degree can not get licensed in certain states..... it is not true. I have check 32 states so far. While many of them do require more than 4 years of experience after passing the FE, not one that I have come across so far has excluded ET degrees from gaining licensure. Obviously an MS would not help with licensure since it is not an ABET accredited engineering degree. I have not seen a place yet (not saying there aren't any, I just haven't seen them) that accredits the MS. I believe the reason is that ABET will only accredit one or the other, not both.
Additionally, I have been working with the main campus of my undergrad school to allow me to take some undergrad classes via distance education so satisfy the (5) classes I am deficient in. I will need to travel the 3 hours to campus for tests, but....
I appreciate all of your input.

 

[UcfSE]

See page 5.

NCEES 2005 Licensing Boards Survey

 

[jpankask]

StructuralEIT,
If you follow the link UsfSE provided, you will see on page E5 and E6 the 4 states who answered N/A do not license Technology graduates. Kansas and South Carolina did not answer but do not license Technology graduates either. I don't know about the other states that didn't answer the question. South Carolina is working to allow technology graduates to seek licensure with extra experience and application requirements.

And actually, Kansas for sure, maybe others will consider the MS degree for those with a BS in technology. The MS must be from a graduate program that offers EAC accredited undergraduate degrees. For example, you got your degree in BS Civil Engineering Technology. If you go on and get your MS degree from a program that is accredited for BS Civil Engineering, then you would be eligible to sit for the PE exam in Kansas. I don't know what other states might do this, that was just passed this year in Kansas.

 

[jistre]

I really believe there's an overall movement in the country to do away with experience based entry into the field of engineering, as over the recent decades, more and more states are removing provisions that allow experience to count in place of schooling to requiring schooling and X number of years of experience only.

I have to believe that this is a result of a broader push to bring engineering to a point where, like medicine, you can be assured of a bare minimum level of education and expertise when hiring a professional engineer.

 

[Lion06]

Ok, two final questions for this post. I have found a good MS program that will take me without requiring the undergrad "engineering" equivalents of my undergrad "engineering technology" courses.
This university also allows for a concentrated focus in structural engineering. The course descriptions look very similar, but I am having a little trouble making the decision to just do this master's or do the master's at the first school and then the required undergrad prerequisites.
Here is where the issue lies: The first school is a highly ranked undergrad school for CE, but not ranked for MS. While it is not ranked for MS, if I ever leave the area the first school would probably be more recognizable. The question is: Does this matter? Will the recognition of a school matter even if the MS is not ranked, or will just the fact of having a MS matter?
The second question is regarding licensure. It would probably be directed at UcfSe - since you seem to be the resident expert in licensure (at least in Florida). Is jpankask correct? Do you know if Florida will allow someone with a MS from a school that has an accredited undergrad BSCE to gain licensure?

 

[UcfSE]

Here's what I know from experience with other engineers, both with a foreign non-ABET degree, with and without master's degrees as well as with technology degrees.

One engineer I knew with a tech degree told me he checked with the board himself and was told he could not sit for the PE exam with a tech degree. Done.

In regards to an advanced degree, licensing boards typically do not consider an advanced degree to substitute for course work, based on the experiences of people I have known. Some boards will provide an allowance for the advanced degree only in terms of the number of years of experience required to sit for the exam. Engineers with non-ABET undergrad degrees often have to take extra course work to satisfy the board before they are permitted to sit for the exam. This applies even to engineers with an MS and PhD from the US but undergrad from another country. Given this information, I would assume that having the advanced degree will not help if you have a technology degree for your undergraduate work, since it did not help anyone else. That is an assumption on my part, but if haivng a PhD won't help, I don't see why anything else would. We have a PhD going through this right now. He is having to pick up some extra classes at the local community college to satusfy the board education requirements.

So, take it with a grain of salt so to speak. This is only what I have seen and may only apply to my state, but for some reason I doubt it is only here. Good luck with finding a solution.

 

[rigarc00]

How can incoming student possibly know their school is either a regular ABET ot only ABET-TAC accrdited? Looking back at my own experience I thought my school gave only one type of ABET degree. I did hear that my college also offered IT (Industrial Technologies) and GE (General Engineering) programs. Is this what an ABET-TAC is? Many people who could not keep up with the strain of calculus-based physics and higher courses would often migrate to these programs because it was more hand-on than the thoeretical focus of the rest of the engineering programs.

Even with ABET accreditation each college can still deviate in their own curriculum. I once took a masters level course with a graduate from Stanford and was surprised to see that in her previous corriculum non of her structures professos ever covered Eigenvalues and Eigenvectors and how to use them to calculated principal stresses. She was convinced Mohr circle should be used to solve everything. I have to say this person was very smart and was able to pick up the material quickly.

In the real world not everyone is working doing research and knowing tech methods is good enough. What i experienced coming out of school is that i learned that i was really lacking in knowing how to get reults fast. By this i mean i was never exposed to classical methods of structural analysis (At least in the Aero structures field). Once i graduated and got my first job i learned there are plenty or resources (Bruhn, Roark, and Niu) that i could use to obtain early approximation. I have yet to use tensor mathematics on any of my analysis.

 

[jpankask]

StructuralEIT,
My opinion on one MS program vs. another is basically that having the MS is the weighting factor. Where the degree is from matters relatively little to most people as long as your MS degree is either 1) accredited or 2) from a program that offers an ABET accredited undergraduate degree in the same department. Most programs will accredit their undergraduate programs because ABET won't accredit BS and MS programs for some reason. There will always be people who will prefer some big name school or their alma mater, etc. but for the most part having the degree will matter more than where it comes from. There was a long discussion some time back about this subject in another thread.

Here is the problem with school rankings; who ranks them, on what criteria and what schools are considered? Of course there are the universities everyone knows about because of their reputation but school rankings, especially when they change every year, mean very little to a hiring manager. They will be looking at your experience, the actual classes you have taken, etc.

rigarc00,
On the ABET website, you can look up which programs are EAC and TAC accredited. If the program is accredited, they will usually advertise that fact as being ABET-EAC or ABET-TAC accredited. Generally, if the program name has "technology" anywhere in it (i.e. industrial engineering technology), it will not be EAC accredited. EAC is the Engineering Accreditation Commission, TAC is the Technology Accreditation Commission. Yes there is deviation between accredited programs, accreditation simply means that your program meets some minimum set of standards. Some programs may meet the minimum, others might excel. However the standards are different for Engineering and Technology.