Hey all, I am trying to make a decision. I spent 20 years working in a large casting plant, gained a great deal of knowledge and experience. The plant closed, I then went to work in another casting plant, a new plant suplying parts to toyota. I have a great job here, working in qa lab making $14.00 per hour. I do ppap, layouts on new parts, cpk studies and daily production checks. My problem is, Management moved someone else into the lab making 5 more dollars per hour than me. I have perfect attendance for 5.5 years never late and I do great work. Management promoted someone else in the plant to die cast engineer, this guy is good at die casting and he will do a fine job. This is a job I have been wanting and it was't posted up for bid. I know the company can do whatever they want. I am covered up in work and can't get help my boss seems to not care, I can't keep up with all the new ppaps and layouts as well as production checks. I am working day shift, should I seek a job in another plant that pays more per hour and work mayby night shift or stay here and ignore the bs? please advise. Thanks
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Quit a good job or not? 9
- Thread starter Jerry66
- Start date
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1
- #2
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Other places have their own brands of BS, but no place has none. Some places focus so much on BS that you can't just ignore it, so being able to tune it out is worth something.
I'd sure hope to be making more than $14/hr with 26 years of experience. Maybe the cost of living is very low in your area?
Perhaps your boss is assuming that you will figure out ways to become more efficient, or ways to unofficially secure short-term help, or some other way to dig yourself out of a hole. There's something to be said for a boss who's not yelling at you twice a day and holding interminable meetings to find out why you can't get much done while he's egregiously wasting your time.
I personally have always enjoyed the night shift, because the rules are more relaxed, but it's not for everyone.
All that said, at some level you knew what you wanted to hear when you asked for advice. ... didn't you?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
I'd sure hope to be making more than $14/hr with 26 years of experience. Maybe the cost of living is very low in your area?
Perhaps your boss is assuming that you will figure out ways to become more efficient, or ways to unofficially secure short-term help, or some other way to dig yourself out of a hole. There's something to be said for a boss who's not yelling at you twice a day and holding interminable meetings to find out why you can't get much done while he's egregiously wasting your time.
I personally have always enjoyed the night shift, because the rules are more relaxed, but it's not for everyone.
All that said, at some level you knew what you wanted to hear when you asked for advice. ... didn't you?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
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2
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Is it possible that your boss is un-aware of your frustration. If I was in your situation, I would let my boss know my ambitions.
That being said, it seems the best way to move up the ladder is to look for a new job while you are employed. If a company is interested in you, it is one of the few times that you have a leg to stand on during negotiations.
That being said, it seems the best way to move up the ladder is to look for a new job while you are employed. If a company is interested in you, it is one of the few times that you have a leg to stand on during negotiations.
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bigTomHanks
Mechanical
Jerry,
I like you, I can tell you are a down to earth reasonable person that can be counted on. Unfortunately from the sound of your post you are being overlooked in your current position(not necessarily underappreciated). I think that this may be due to your boss not valuing your work. Not that your work isn't good but that he/she is not very interested in it and it does not affect him in any appreciable way. All that being said in my opionion we are about to enter a very exciting time in the manufacturing sector. Inventories have been sold down, companies have been hording cash, and consumers are comfortable enough to start ponying up for new stuff. Manufacturing is opportunities are going to start becoming more prevelant and if you are flexible, with your experience you should be able to find something better. The only thing that I caution is that sometimes what we want isn't what we thought it would be like when we get it. Either way I would seriously think about leaving because your pay seems fairly low given what you have revealed in your original post.
I like you, I can tell you are a down to earth reasonable person that can be counted on. Unfortunately from the sound of your post you are being overlooked in your current position(not necessarily underappreciated). I think that this may be due to your boss not valuing your work. Not that your work isn't good but that he/she is not very interested in it and it does not affect him in any appreciable way. All that being said in my opionion we are about to enter a very exciting time in the manufacturing sector. Inventories have been sold down, companies have been hording cash, and consumers are comfortable enough to start ponying up for new stuff. Manufacturing is opportunities are going to start becoming more prevelant and if you are flexible, with your experience you should be able to find something better. The only thing that I caution is that sometimes what we want isn't what we thought it would be like when we get it. Either way I would seriously think about leaving because your pay seems fairly low given what you have revealed in your original post.
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Yes, the question is, does your boss know the situation?
With 20 years experience, and you only moved on because the company folded, you will be labelled as "safe".
They will figure you for no ambition and no bite.
The days when employees might work cradle to grave for on employer are long gone and anyone who has a very limited employer list is naturally going to be regarded as someone to count on to come in and do their job without complaint day in and day out.
"Safe" sounds nice but isn't.
It means you are the one they can safely give below average pay rises to and overlook for any promotion prospects because they don't think you are going to do anything but suck it up.
It is sad but true that employees who make the most noise and who have a lot more jobs behind them may be seen as ambitious and dynamic (and not as trouble) and many earn far more and get far better jobs because they job hop. They may well be far less good at any of these jobs than a "steady Eddie"..... but that isn't what counts.
The workplace isn't really a meritocracy.
A manager has just so much in his budget each year to hand out. He could hand it out purely on merit but the reality is that he has to avoid unnecessary disruption and staff turnover. This means he gives the most carrots to the nosiest donkeys, not those who deserve it most. And he ells everyone the same story.... times are hard - I did my best - you got a little more than most so don't tell anyone what you got. Of course, the safe guy believes every word and actually, year on year gets less and less of the pot.
So, you now have to upset his perceptions of you and let him know you do have ambition and that you do resent not being paid a decent wage.
You have to persuade people you can take on more responsibility and new tasks and you are going to have to upset pre-conceived ideas about your character.
Don't worry too much, I started out on this path as a one company guy and had to learn to bite back and stand up for myself.
Just don't take it too far; if you find yourself arguing with the group finance director about your company car, or whether or not you should get free coffee, you may need to bring it back a notch, but developing some bite after years of being Mr Safe and Mr Quiet and Mr Dependable isn't completely unusual.
And, yes, be sure you have some prospects lined up.
As said above, you have no way to predict how your boss will respond when a "safe" employee suddenly bites him.
You need another job lined up, not to use to blackmail your boss, that never works, but as a fall back if everything goes wrong and having that fall back, it allows you to be more assertive in your approach.
PS how did you discover the employee was getting more than you? He told you? Management won't like that.
Oh, and when applying for other jobs, they like to ask current salary. The only reason I can think that justifies this is that they want to know what sort of a sap they are dealing with. What has what you are being paid now got to do with what they are prepared to pay for the job they want to fill?
Be interested to see how others deal with this one.
JMW
With 20 years experience, and you only moved on because the company folded, you will be labelled as "safe".
They will figure you for no ambition and no bite.
The days when employees might work cradle to grave for on employer are long gone and anyone who has a very limited employer list is naturally going to be regarded as someone to count on to come in and do their job without complaint day in and day out.
"Safe" sounds nice but isn't.
It means you are the one they can safely give below average pay rises to and overlook for any promotion prospects because they don't think you are going to do anything but suck it up.
It is sad but true that employees who make the most noise and who have a lot more jobs behind them may be seen as ambitious and dynamic (and not as trouble) and many earn far more and get far better jobs because they job hop. They may well be far less good at any of these jobs than a "steady Eddie"..... but that isn't what counts.
The workplace isn't really a meritocracy.
A manager has just so much in his budget each year to hand out. He could hand it out purely on merit but the reality is that he has to avoid unnecessary disruption and staff turnover. This means he gives the most carrots to the nosiest donkeys, not those who deserve it most. And he ells everyone the same story.... times are hard - I did my best - you got a little more than most so don't tell anyone what you got. Of course, the safe guy believes every word and actually, year on year gets less and less of the pot.
So, you now have to upset his perceptions of you and let him know you do have ambition and that you do resent not being paid a decent wage.
You have to persuade people you can take on more responsibility and new tasks and you are going to have to upset pre-conceived ideas about your character.
Don't worry too much, I started out on this path as a one company guy and had to learn to bite back and stand up for myself.
Just don't take it too far; if you find yourself arguing with the group finance director about your company car, or whether or not you should get free coffee, you may need to bring it back a notch, but developing some bite after years of being Mr Safe and Mr Quiet and Mr Dependable isn't completely unusual.
And, yes, be sure you have some prospects lined up.
As said above, you have no way to predict how your boss will respond when a "safe" employee suddenly bites him.
You need another job lined up, not to use to blackmail your boss, that never works, but as a fall back if everything goes wrong and having that fall back, it allows you to be more assertive in your approach.
PS how did you discover the employee was getting more than you? He told you? Management won't like that.
Oh, and when applying for other jobs, they like to ask current salary. The only reason I can think that justifies this is that they want to know what sort of a sap they are dealing with. What has what you are being paid now got to do with what they are prepared to pay for the job they want to fill?
Be interested to see how others deal with this one.
JMW
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- #9
Sounds like you have a lot of home grown "tribal knowledge". If you want to seriously look for new opportunities, get as much paper as possible to back up your claims. Look into getting certifications, etc. that you can take with you. Finish any nearly-done work like almost-finished degrees.
MiketheEngineer
Structural
$14.00 per hour - Sorry - but you can make almost that much at McDonalds and free food!!
Find something or someplace that can use your talents.
Find something or someplace that can use your talents.
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Yep, underpaid. After 5 years as a phone monkey, I was at $12/hr, I started as caliper boy at $14, 3% cost of living bump w/ everyone else a couple months later. My low as cad jockey was $16/hr, well, $400/wk as an unemployed CAD jockey. That in the 2nd or third poorest large city in the US.
- Thread starter
- #13
GregLocock
Automotive
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Boy, have they undervalued you!
I'd love to know how anyone decides to invest in a new plant with everyone new to the business.... and hope to make a success of it.
Does one assume this is a new plant owned by a group?
If so, you have to wonder how they put the team together. (a bunch of business men who saw an opportunity when your original employer went belly up? Or a conglomerate who saw the same opportunity?
The right approach would surely have been to establish a core of key people experienced in the business who can not only do their jobs but bring along the newbies and that means key personnel at every level. Why didn't they recruit more skills and experience from your old company?
Otherwise, you can't help wonder just how bad a mess they will make of the business.
You also have to wonder how they managed ot get contracts with Toyota who could be expected to evaluate their sub contractors thoroughly and insightfully.
They do seem to have found a couple of experienced people such as yourself and, if you are not being overly generous, the die caster.
But unless it goes deeper than that they are in real danger of losing the very people they need to keep, simply because they know no better and don't seem to understand that you are potentially a key person. That means also that this Toyota contract is at risk. If you look at it that way, ask yourself how likely it is they will mess up and lose that contract and then ask what you have to lose?
Chances are that unless they let you fly and reward you right, they have a lot to lose. It is important to keep that in mind. This is a key point.
I don't think you have thought this through as logically as you should.
First off, you need to define your objectives.
Then get a reality check. Are your objectives realistic? Are they achievable?
Then the problem needs to be defined.
It helps if you try not to see this as your problem.
Your problem is how to achieve your objectives within the circumstances that exist
But the real problem is to make this your manager's problem.
He isn't interested in solving your problems. But he may well be interested in solving his own problems so you have to make it his problem.
Clearly, you have framed your initial approach based on false assumptions which suggests you have not really been methodical about this.
For example, what on earth is the point of showing away how good you are if the management has no means or experience to recognise it?
If you worked for a management team experienced in the business, then they could be expected to know the difference between someone doing a good job and someone doing a bad job.
Without that experience your extra dedication is actually probably working against you.
Why? because the way they will appreciate how good you are is to see how you solve problems. But they have to know the problems exist and they won't know this if you keep anticipating and solving them.
And since they don't know what problems are being avoided they cannot put a value on your work.
To have a meaningful conversation with your boss and to get him to appreciate your value, and to get him to appreciate the showing away you have already been doing, he needs to know rather more about the business than, it seems, he does. He also needs to understand what it is that makes you valuable.
So, as part of this, how do you demonstrate your worth to someone who has no basis for understanding? If he doesn't understand the business, how can he appreciate your value?
And it isn't that you want more money and more responsibility and the right conditions to do a good job, those are all things you want.
Management see this as money spent.
You have to make management want to impose these things on you to avoid even bigger financial disasters.
You need a game plan and you need to work it through step by step.
You have any holidays coming up?
Take them and use them wisely.
You have any inkling of Toyota inspections coming up? There must be some, they will surely want to audit the company meaningfully...
Can this be to your advantage some way? either by being present and involved (these are the guys who must know how to recognise good workers from bad) or by being absent... no one to answer difficult questions...
You also hope that with you on holiday, all those problems will start to emerge.
You have an advantage. Most of us work for fairly competent teams of people so we are missed, but apart from grumbling all that awaits us on our return are the non-critical grunt stuff piled high on our desks.
IF you are it, no one can carry the load while you are gone and even a small holiday can pay dividends, especially if taken at the right time.
If you see there are some critical projects coming up and you know when your presence is most critical, that's when to take your holiday. Don't forget, it's your bosses responsibility to ensure proper staffing levels, not yours.
I don't see how else you are going to get them started understanding your value. Unless anyone else has some good ideas, and I'm sure they will.
Above all, your boss has to realise how much his own success depends on you. If you make life too comfortable for him he will think this is the natural order or things.
He needs to get a new perspective and quickly and whn you have that meeting with him, you need to be in a seller's market, not a buyer's. I kind of suspect when you interviewed for the job with your last company belly up, you were in a buyer's market and they picked you up cheap.
SO you also need to time your meeting with the boss and thoroughly prepare. That means being prepared to stack shelves at Lowes if necessary (or make him think so). But you can probably do better than that.
At any event, he needs to realise three things all at the same time:
[ul]His success depends on you[/li]
[li]His success is at serious risk[/li]
[li]You are about ready to chuck in the towel[/li][/ul]
Then be ready to horse trade.
It helps if both you and he have some idea of your true market value.
Take some time to do some serious job hunting. You can be more relaxed about it with this job in hand. Having another job offer puts you in command when you have the meeting.
You need be prepared to spell out in detail exactly what skills and qualities you bring to the company and their true value and importance. That means identifying the problems that can arise and their consequences.
Bear in mind that they need Toyota's contract (I assume this is key) and they need to understand how easily they can lose this.
Beyond that, I can't think what else to suggest. I'm sure the others will say to what extent I misread this and will ahve plenty of good suggestions.
JMW
I'd love to know how anyone decides to invest in a new plant with everyone new to the business.... and hope to make a success of it.
Does one assume this is a new plant owned by a group?
If so, you have to wonder how they put the team together. (a bunch of business men who saw an opportunity when your original employer went belly up? Or a conglomerate who saw the same opportunity?
The right approach would surely have been to establish a core of key people experienced in the business who can not only do their jobs but bring along the newbies and that means key personnel at every level. Why didn't they recruit more skills and experience from your old company?
Otherwise, you can't help wonder just how bad a mess they will make of the business.
You also have to wonder how they managed ot get contracts with Toyota who could be expected to evaluate their sub contractors thoroughly and insightfully.
They do seem to have found a couple of experienced people such as yourself and, if you are not being overly generous, the die caster.
But unless it goes deeper than that they are in real danger of losing the very people they need to keep, simply because they know no better and don't seem to understand that you are potentially a key person. That means also that this Toyota contract is at risk. If you look at it that way, ask yourself how likely it is they will mess up and lose that contract and then ask what you have to lose?
Chances are that unless they let you fly and reward you right, they have a lot to lose. It is important to keep that in mind. This is a key point.
I don't think you have thought this through as logically as you should.
First off, you need to define your objectives.
Then get a reality check. Are your objectives realistic? Are they achievable?
Then the problem needs to be defined.
It helps if you try not to see this as your problem.
Your problem is how to achieve your objectives within the circumstances that exist
But the real problem is to make this your manager's problem.
He isn't interested in solving your problems. But he may well be interested in solving his own problems so you have to make it his problem.
Clearly, you have framed your initial approach based on false assumptions which suggests you have not really been methodical about this.
For example, what on earth is the point of showing away how good you are if the management has no means or experience to recognise it?
If you worked for a management team experienced in the business, then they could be expected to know the difference between someone doing a good job and someone doing a bad job.
Without that experience your extra dedication is actually probably working against you.
Why? because the way they will appreciate how good you are is to see how you solve problems. But they have to know the problems exist and they won't know this if you keep anticipating and solving them.
And since they don't know what problems are being avoided they cannot put a value on your work.
To have a meaningful conversation with your boss and to get him to appreciate your value, and to get him to appreciate the showing away you have already been doing, he needs to know rather more about the business than, it seems, he does. He also needs to understand what it is that makes you valuable.
So, as part of this, how do you demonstrate your worth to someone who has no basis for understanding? If he doesn't understand the business, how can he appreciate your value?
And it isn't that you want more money and more responsibility and the right conditions to do a good job, those are all things you want.
Management see this as money spent.
You have to make management want to impose these things on you to avoid even bigger financial disasters.
You need a game plan and you need to work it through step by step.
You have any holidays coming up?
Take them and use them wisely.
You have any inkling of Toyota inspections coming up? There must be some, they will surely want to audit the company meaningfully...
Can this be to your advantage some way? either by being present and involved (these are the guys who must know how to recognise good workers from bad) or by being absent... no one to answer difficult questions...
You also hope that with you on holiday, all those problems will start to emerge.
You have an advantage. Most of us work for fairly competent teams of people so we are missed, but apart from grumbling all that awaits us on our return are the non-critical grunt stuff piled high on our desks.
IF you are it, no one can carry the load while you are gone and even a small holiday can pay dividends, especially if taken at the right time.
If you see there are some critical projects coming up and you know when your presence is most critical, that's when to take your holiday. Don't forget, it's your bosses responsibility to ensure proper staffing levels, not yours.
I don't see how else you are going to get them started understanding your value. Unless anyone else has some good ideas, and I'm sure they will.
Above all, your boss has to realise how much his own success depends on you. If you make life too comfortable for him he will think this is the natural order or things.
He needs to get a new perspective and quickly and whn you have that meeting with him, you need to be in a seller's market, not a buyer's. I kind of suspect when you interviewed for the job with your last company belly up, you were in a buyer's market and they picked you up cheap.
SO you also need to time your meeting with the boss and thoroughly prepare. That means being prepared to stack shelves at Lowes if necessary (or make him think so). But you can probably do better than that.
At any event, he needs to realise three things all at the same time:
[ul]His success depends on you[/li]
[li]His success is at serious risk[/li]
[li]You are about ready to chuck in the towel[/li][/ul]
Then be ready to horse trade.
It helps if both you and he have some idea of your true market value.
Take some time to do some serious job hunting. You can be more relaxed about it with this job in hand. Having another job offer puts you in command when you have the meeting.
You need be prepared to spell out in detail exactly what skills and qualities you bring to the company and their true value and importance. That means identifying the problems that can arise and their consequences.
Bear in mind that they need Toyota's contract (I assume this is key) and they need to understand how easily they can lose this.
Beyond that, I can't think what else to suggest. I'm sure the others will say to what extent I misread this and will ahve plenty of good suggestions.
JMW
- Thread starter
- #16
- Thread starter
- #17
At my plant, we have a couple of customers who are offering us more business, but we do not have the capacity, once our new jobs start production, as I stated previously. This a good company, it will be here a long time. This is why I believe I could work here until I retire. Thats why it is a tough decision for me to think about leaving.
If your company is booming, so are a few of your competitors. Find out who they are and target them for a position. DOn't get fooled thinking that just because your company is doing well now, that means job security; you don't know their books or their future plans. DOn't wait for anyone else to take care of you; be proactive, take the bull by the horns, and all that other crap. SOunds like you have experience any company would love to have.
You also need to watch out the way you look for work, you haven't job hopped that much, so you don't know how cruel this world is out there. check out the threads on resume and job seeking on this site.
Don't send your resumes blindly to everyone, your boss will know about it in a heartbeat, and you will be laid off just as fast without knowing it.
A colleague once sent his resume out, 10 minutes later I knew about it, I got a call from the person who received it asking what I thought about the guy.
Find someone on the inside to pass out your resume, or call first and speak to the person that will receive the resume, then call back to check if there is any interest.
I once increased my salary by 30% in 2 weeks, by getting a 15% increase offer then I got my boss to beat an offer that was 35% (well, I told I got a 35% instead of 15% increase), he matched 30% increase in salary and we called it a deal.
But,I started looking for work immediately, I knew that I will be out as soon as my current projects were finished. They fired me two month later, but I had already a job lined up with another 10% increase. Never force your employer's hand as you're no longer a "team player" and you're on your way out.
But those were the 90's.
PS: stop calling it "OUR Plant this, OUR plant that", it ain't yours, and you don't even belong in the company picture. fogettaboutit - move on.
Don't send your resumes blindly to everyone, your boss will know about it in a heartbeat, and you will be laid off just as fast without knowing it.
A colleague once sent his resume out, 10 minutes later I knew about it, I got a call from the person who received it asking what I thought about the guy.
Find someone on the inside to pass out your resume, or call first and speak to the person that will receive the resume, then call back to check if there is any interest.
I once increased my salary by 30% in 2 weeks, by getting a 15% increase offer then I got my boss to beat an offer that was 35% (well, I told I got a 35% instead of 15% increase), he matched 30% increase in salary and we called it a deal.
But,I started looking for work immediately, I knew that I will be out as soon as my current projects were finished. They fired me two month later, but I had already a job lined up with another 10% increase. Never force your employer's hand as you're no longer a "team player" and you're on your way out.
But those were the 90's.
PS: stop calling it "OUR Plant this, OUR plant that", it ain't yours, and you don't even belong in the company picture. fogettaboutit - move on.
Did one of your posts go missing Jerry?
I thought there was one where you said the Toyota business was solid and that your group kept sending people down to sort out problems..... boy I hate it when posts go missing for no apparent reason and there is nothing to show they have gone.
There was a point to be made here:
How sure are you that the Toyota contract is solid?
Why do they keep parachuting in teams of people to fix problems? It suggests that someone off site is more aware than your managers of what can and should happen.
One would hope that your work has a better profile (and appreciation) with these people.... but don't count on it.
This is the dog that didn't bark.
You rely here on someone noting that despite dealing with various problems, they don't have to deal with problems in your section. That often doesn't happen. They will be focussed on the problems and not on non-problems.
This is common. People and things that work well escape observation. There is nothing to draw attention and especially not when there are other distractions.
You may want to consider how you might be noticed by these people since they seem to be the ones who really know the business.
At the moment, your boss probably escapes most of their attention because of you and neither they nor him will bother to wonder why that is.
In fact, he probably is getting all the credit --- for being a good manager.
You need to do some thinking and find a way through this.
But, as cry22's post suggests, you need to be wary of how you achieve your objectives.
You somehow need to get management to identify a need to make you happy from their own initiative.
That might come from attention being drawn to your work and value indirectly. These visiting teams might represent the best source of such a recommendation.
JMW
I thought there was one where you said the Toyota business was solid and that your group kept sending people down to sort out problems..... boy I hate it when posts go missing for no apparent reason and there is nothing to show they have gone.
There was a point to be made here:
How sure are you that the Toyota contract is solid?
Why do they keep parachuting in teams of people to fix problems? It suggests that someone off site is more aware than your managers of what can and should happen.
One would hope that your work has a better profile (and appreciation) with these people.... but don't count on it.
This is the dog that didn't bark.
You rely here on someone noting that despite dealing with various problems, they don't have to deal with problems in your section. That often doesn't happen. They will be focussed on the problems and not on non-problems.
This is common. People and things that work well escape observation. There is nothing to draw attention and especially not when there are other distractions.
You may want to consider how you might be noticed by these people since they seem to be the ones who really know the business.
At the moment, your boss probably escapes most of their attention because of you and neither they nor him will bother to wonder why that is.
In fact, he probably is getting all the credit --- for being a good manager.
You need to do some thinking and find a way through this.
But, as cry22's post suggests, you need to be wary of how you achieve your objectives.
You somehow need to get management to identify a need to make you happy from their own initiative.
That might come from attention being drawn to your work and value indirectly. These visiting teams might represent the best source of such a recommendation.
JMW
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