"Actual Experience" Doesn't Match Number of Years of Experience 6

[Moebius85]

Hello,

After working at local full service A/E firm for five years, I got a job at a structural engineering firm last year. The reason I had made the change was because a)I was the only structural engineer, besides the owner, and so there wasn't enough work volume for me to be challenged or to continue to learn and develop my skills b) I didn't believe I was being paid enough.
Just before my 1 year anniversary at the structural engineering firm, I was fired because my performance did not meet their standards. One common theme that was present in my performance reviews was "for his experience, he should have more job knowledge" "for someone of his experience, he should know this, or know that" ...etc. and that I should be more productive.
I guess based on 5 years of experience, they expected more of an independent/senior role than my actual experience warranted. The reason I say "actual experience" is because during this past year I realized how bad my 5 year experience with the other firm was. One example of this is that project budget was rarely brought up, so I never developed the necessary time management skills in order to be efficient with my time. A lot of times, I never learned how to design certain things because my former boss, when asked, would just say "use this size plate" or "this size bolt" and so on.
I still learned a great deal during this past year, but now I have this dilemma. My resume says I have nearly nine years of experience (this includes 3 years overseas, which is not very relevant to the US AEC industry) with several varied types of projects, but my actual skills are not at the level of someone with equal years of proper structural engineering experience.
I'm in the process of looking for jobs now. Any advice anyone can offer is greatly appreciated. Sorry for the long post.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Plenty of companies out there that will happily take someone at a lower salary... so don't select a position on having a top salary, choose one that has a large department. Give it a few years to get your experience level up and then revisit if you need to find another job.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[MrHershey]

Are you licensed? If not, then shame on the employer for some of this. If someone comes to me with nine years of experience and no license I try and figure out why. It's not a huge issue if you have good reasons (worked in-house, worked for a one-man shop, switched fields, went back to school, whatever), but that tells me that your nine years of experience may not be a real nine years. Sounds like those questions weren't asked and probably should have been to help set expectations.

I think probably best bet going forward is to be honest. Apply for entry level positions or positions only requiring a couple years experience. You'll probably get interviews based on the years of experience. If they're smart, they'll ask why you're applying for a job that only needs a couple years and you have 9. Be wary of those who don't ask, they'll figure it out eventually just the last firm did. For those who do ask, tell the truth. You worked three years overseas, then five for basically a one man shop, and then one at a structural firm. During the one year at the structural firm you discovered that the previous eight hadn't provided you the quality of experience that you perhaps thought they did and it's time to take a few steps back.

Edit: Also don't expect to get the salary of someone with 9 years experience. I wouldn't advertise that you're willing to take something lower, you never want to leave money on the table. But don't try to negotiate too hard either. The disappoint in someone not being up to snuff usually comes down to pay. It's not so much that your experience didn't get them what they thought it would, it's that the money they paid for your experience didn't.

 

[swertel]

9 years of experience or 1 year of experience 9 times.
I've dealt with both individuals and it has always fallen on me as the hiring manager to weed out the individuals with 1 year of experience.

As @MrHershey states, it really comes down to pay. If I'm hiring a mid-level engineer, and paying for a mid-level engineer, I expect a mid-level engineer. My discretion on hiring is based on available budget and time. Yes, time. I expect to have to spend a lot of time mentoring a new grad. I don't expect to have to spend a lot of time with a mid-level engineer. That mentoring time is basically paying for 2 people to do one job. If I'm already paying "you" the higher salary, I shouldn't be paying double twice over.

Age has no relevance. If your resume shows that you have been in the field 10 years but are applying for an entry-level position, I'm certainly going to ask why. Then, during the interview, I'm going to make sure you completely understand the job description. While I love initiative and personal growth and requesting more responsibility, I do not like when an employee later complains about doing the mundane or not being challenged when I explicitly defined the position during the interview. Professional growth is a part of every opportunity and as a manager that is a goal I set for myself - to develop my employees. At the same time, if the position included incorporating redlines, guess who gets to incorporate redlines, regardless of how many years experience you have.

--Scott
www.aerornd.com

 

[Moebius85]

@MrHershey Thanks for the advice. Yes I'm licensed. I had just passed my PE exam when I transitioned to the structural firm. The engineering board did not accept any overseas experience so I had to wait until I accumulated 4 years of experience before I took the exam.
Regarding employer questions and expectations, I actually told them during the interview that I was working at a one-man shop where I did my own CAD, whereas they had modelers and drafters for which I needed to provide mark-ups. They still had high expectations somehow. I was one of only two to hold an "Engineer II" position in the firm. The other guy was someone they really relied on and was, along with another senior guy, the go-to person for concrete structures. The majority of the engineers were either "Engineer I" or "Design Engineer". I think you're right, it all came down to how much they were paying me vs how much they were getting, and a gap in expectations between me and them.

 

[Sparweb]

Just throwing this out for (hopefully) some perspective:
In my field, 5 years experience is still "junior", and about 50/50 odds on whether the average engineer could be ready for intermediate-level responsibilities. I know some folks who could be engineering for their entire career and still be juniors.
By your own description, you're still junior, and you will be as long as either a) responsibilities are not added to your work or, b) you don't ask for more responsibilities.
So it doesn't really matter if your total years adds up to 5, 8 or 9. Your best targets for your next job may be firms that will take you on as a junior, allow you to demonstrate your drive and ability to manage greater responsibility, and get you licensed if that's where you want your career to go.

STF

 

[oldestguy]

We have only one side of the story. I'd bet there were some other factors calling for dismissal. Do a careful self examination and see about correcting the failings.

 

[SoFloJoe]

There are some very good advice here and I agree this is only one side of the story, most employers are willing to put up with less experience and should be patient enough to groom the new employee. Usually there is a breaking point where the employer concludes either the employee does not have what it takes no matter how long, or they see the employee is unwilling to make the corrections necessary to advance and follow the companies protocol and correct mistakes.

This sounds like bad news, but on the contrary. You have an opportunity to look at what made you different from others (the good and bad), be honest and aware for your next job. Since you worked at an A/E firm you have a different perspective then most structural engineers! Find out what that is and maybe you can position yourself as a project manager to be the liason with Architects and Contractors since you speak their language a bit better. This is just one example and I am sure you can come up with others.

Be honest at your next interview while portraying your ability to manage architectural types and be willing to accept lower pay. Also make sure to convey that you are a problem solver not problem maker.

And I strongly suggest looking into lean methodology (checkout "2 second lean" or similar). Having a lean mentality is gold for employers.

Goodluck!

 

[CWB1]

I've known many engineers poorly qualified for their position and many more who simply thought they were. Regardless, different positions within the same general field will almost always require quite a lot of continuing education and professional development. Most engineering managers recognize this and are more than willing to facilitate your growth, the larger question being the individual's dedication and work ethic. I've worked at companies where days and weeks of professional development were billable hours and others that expected you to work 40-60 and come up to speed on your own after hours. In both cases the expectation of after-hours effort always existed, and I've known quite a few engineers to be dismissed for refusing to make that effort. Given the comment about time management you may want to consider if you were doing enough to satisfy the last company that you were making your best effort during and after work.

As to taking an entry-level position in your own field, JMO but I'd hope a licensed engineer would not need to do this. If so, they likely need to resign their license immediately and report the PEs who signed off on their experience.

 

[oldestguy]

This old guy thinking back. Of the engineers I have had to dismiss one thing was common. While they each had the technical know how, their day to day activities and attitudes were the basis for the dismissals. However, in contacting them in later years each failed to even recognize they had these faults. So, I would surmise that this situation will be no different. So the advice about self examination likely will be tossed aside as meaningless. Sad.

 

[Moebius85]

Some good advice on this thread. Thank you to all who contributed. I definitely see where my former employer is coming from, and I understand their point of view. They've made valid points of criticism of my performance. A major one, was the low productivity. I sometimes tend to get so engrossed in what task I'm doing that I lose track of time and lose sight of the bigger project picture and what needs to be accomplished. This is something I need to be more aware of going forward.
The reason why I was a little frustrated was the fact that the first formal delivery of these criticisms was at the year end review, 8 months into employment. Tbh, I expected the performance review to be bad but was still surprised by the severity of it. I tried my best to keep these points in mind and implement corrections in my performance between that review and the 1st quarterly review. Unfortunately, the 1st quarterly review did not reflect any improvement in my performance. I guess it was too little too late by then.

 

[vthomidis]

I wish you best luck in your next steps. You are young enough not to
get disappointed by inconveniences that many people anyway face and have faced.

Additionally, if I were you I would not be so polite to leave "aggressive" comments (like that recent)ureplied...

 

[P205]

SoFloJoe I was very intrigued by your recommendation for 2 Second Lean. I started looking into it and found that the author provides the book, in all formats (audio, PDF, Kindle,etc) for free on his website.

https://paulakers.net/books/2-second-lean

 

[Settingsun]

Low productivity won't make you popular anywhere so definitely work on that. Productivity is defined as pushing jobs out the door and getting paid. It's not worth spending a day (or even an hour in most cases) refining your calcs to get a 12mm plate to work when a 16mm plate definitely will. Just specify the 16mm plate and move on. Always have a feel for how important the piece you're currently designing is, and spend your time only on the important pieces. Your first boss was probably just picking a comfortable size of bolt/plate when you asked him for advice.

If you were one of two senior engineers, they would have expected you to be self-sufficient (ie not need help with your designs) and also help out other engineers, maybe even bring clients in the door. Unfortunately you have to make a big decision now: take a lower-paid job with less responsibility, or fake it until you make it at a senior engineer level. The latter is easier in a large company. And needs a lot more work of course because you can't fake getting your designs right - you'll be faking that you already knew how to do it when really you've been working late or at home, reading books and design guides to cover any shortfall in knowledge.

Don't aim for very junior jobs unless you have no other options. The pay will be too low and the interviews harder since you have to explain away your extra years of experience. I have a hard time believing you're not significantly more advanced than an average fresh university graduate given your experience.

 

[Moebius85]

Thank you @steveh49 for your comment.

It's not worth spending a day (or even an hour in most cases) refining your calcs to get a 12mm plate to work when a 16mm plate definitely will. Just specify the 16mm plate and move on. Always have a feel for how important the piece you're currently designing is, and spend your time only on the important pieces. Your first boss was probably just picking a comfortable size of bolt/plate when you asked him for advice.

This is the kind of advice I'm looking for. Do you know of any resources (books/courses..etc.) that provide similar tips/hints or even workflows that one can implement to increase productivity and be able to accomplish tasks faster? I think this would be a good use of my time while I'm job hunting.

Don't aim for very junior jobs unless you have no other options. The pay will be too low and the interviews harder since you have to explain away your extra years of experience. I have a hard time believing you're not significantly more advanced than an average fresh university graduate given your experience.

You've hit the mark here. During my performance reviews, I was always told that I had the "book smarts" and that my analytical skills and code knowledge were there. The problem was that I wasn't able to put things on paper fast enough.

 

[P205]

Do you know of any resources (books/courses..etc.) that provide similar tips/hints or even workflows that one can implement to increase productivity and be able to accomplish tasks faster?

I myself am constantly looking for this type of information. It's hard to come by, is usually something that gets passed down from mentors (in my experience) and is rarely found in books.

The problem was that I wasn't able to put things on paper fast enough.

I still struggle with this to some extent. What has helped me is to build spreadsheets for a lot of the repetitive calculations (steel beams, steel beam-columns, piers, footings, concrete slabs, concrete beams, base plates, anchor rods, etc...).

Building the spreadsheets help improve your understanding of the material tremendously, which helps with your confidence. You could be working on these right now as you look for your next job. That's what I'd be doing in your situation.

Hope this helps.

 

[1gibson]

Sounds like you're lacking some rule of thumb / gut feeling type skills. When you see a new problem, off the top of your head do you have an idea what will definitely work, might work, and definitely won't work? Being very fast and reasonably accurate on that type of thing is a good indication of experience. If you've only ever worked "by the book" with no ideas or expectations until the full calcs are done, you won't develop those instincts. That makes it harder to pick out a typo or error in calculations, which is where experience like that is really valuable.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

I run into "experts" and have been an "expert" and it amounted to nothing more than doing a little bit more reading and bootstrapping than everyone else.
Einstein understood physics better than you but could you tell if he was just twice as good at it or ten times or one hundred times than you. When someone is better, you only know that they are better. If you dig, people will sometimes just think you are way smarter than you are.

Most jobs if you just dig and understand how stuff gets done, that will put you ahead of most. Some companies are so bureaucratic that just understanding how to make things happen is 99% of the battle.

 

[epoisses_]

This is the kind of advice I'm looking for. Do you know of any resources (books/courses..etc.) that provide similar tips/hints or even workflows that one can implement to increase productivity and be able to accomplish tasks faster? I think this would be a good use of my time while I'm job hunting.

One example of this is that project budget was rarely brought up, so I never developed the necessary time management skills in order to be efficient with my time.

I think you gave the answer yourself -- but you should never depend on others (or blame them) for not developing necessary skills. Everyone can use time management skills in any situation and it's never too late to develop them. You're an engineer. You're supposed to create and prioritize your own work. It all starts with time management.

Just giving yourself more things to do can make you more productive. If you do them one by one. If you try to do them all at the same time it will make you much less productive

Allow yourself a certain time only to produce a result. Then step back and see if it's good enough. What would be required to make it better. "Don't get cute" as they say. The next project is waiting. Better deliver 99% than not deliver anything at all. Getting organized as P205 wrote is another key to productivity.

I can understand that if you're the only engineer in the house and there is "not enough work volume for you to be challenged" as you wrote, and you're not actively looking for more of such work, you can get into a mode of filling your time playing around with things unnecessarily. That doesn't teach you efficiency or gut feel. It could be why your next job wasn't a success.

It's saddening though that you got the feedback only after 8 months. We occasionally make that same mistake in my company and we ended up firing people who may have performed much better if we had coached them better and told them the truth much earlier.

 

[Compositepro]

Also, be aware that in many companies these days it is a very difficult and time consuming process to fire someone. It gets harder the longer they have been in their job. Once the decision is made by a manager that the employee is not a keeper, he is still required to go through the HR corrective action process. This can be torture for both the employee and the manager. Once the process is started it can be difficult for the employee to demonstrate that he is a keeper. I am telling you this to give you some perspective and to not feel too bad.