"Chance" of a lifetime 2

[Senselessticker]

I'm hoping to get some feedback from some folks who have taken some BIG risks vs. reward with their career.

I have a friend who is a very successful GC. He started his business around 10 years ago. He mostly builds $500k+ homes, small commercial buildings, and usually goes after "odd/difficult" high profile type jobs. His quality around town is unriveled. Most of his subcontractors are folks he has been doing business with years.

Long story short: he has a standing offer for me to join him once once I get my PE (~1.5 years). At such a time, he plans to bring an Architect and maybe another engineer on board to become a Design/Build type of company. He basically wants me to help run the business and deal with the city/county/lawyers/construction schedules/subcontractors etc...

If I join him, my salary would more than triple from the beginning. Assuming things go well within a few years...I would get a stake in the company.

Is this the opportunity of a lifetime, or should I be very careful in my consideration before I try to leave cubicalville?

 

[Senselessticker]

I could be mistaken...but it seems I've heard that Architects often sign structural. Am I way out in left field...or is this true?

 

[DaveVikingPE]

$180 an hour!!! Man, that's more than lawyers make! A geologist making $100 an hour!!! The classic formula has the sinior principal pulling in $360 k/year and the geologist at $200k/year. Awesome!

I would like to say that geotechnical engineering is a lot harder than rocket science. More people have been killed as a result of inadequate geotechnical engineering than inadequate rocket science.

 

[IceNine]

...And even more people have been killed by Adequate Rocket Science...

 

[TDAA]

DaveVikingPE, I am not sure what formula you are using, but I want to work there for my rate (a slim $90/hr). That would put me at $180K per year!!! Too bad it is close to (but over ) 1/3 of that.

Senseless, about the only non-geotechnical thing I would sign off on is perhaps the structural part of a simple foundation design, or small, cantilevered concrete retaining wall. However, these are things that I work with all the time and studied in school. I have also worked directly with structural engineers (multi discipline firm) on projects of that sort. I would not pretend to know enough to sign off on the “structure” of a building, even though I was as much structural as geotechnical in school. It just isn’t my area of practice. I understand it, but I do not know all the details. Did I cover all the seismic requirements, apply all the load combinations, design my connections properly for how the structure was analyzed, etc.

Those are things you learn from working with experienced engineers in the field of practice. They are not the things to pick up on your own. Take a look at your states licensing web site. Likely they will have listed disciplinary actions taken against licensed professionals. You will see, they can be expensive, and may loose you your license for a while, or for good. If your state doesn’t list them, check NC. They are good about busting people. Then think about how you killed someone when your building collapsed, you get sued, you loose your license, and your pal fires you.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

I'd say that half of all adequate rocket science is for the express purpose of kiling people, so I fully concur.

A well-known rule of thumb for "how much do you make?" is to take the hourly salary, multiply it by two then by a thousand, thus $180/hr X 2 X 1000 = $360,000/year. And if the $180/hr is just for billing and the company takes 75% of that, you're still pulling in .75 X 360 = $90k/year and that's not bad.

 

[IRstuff]

A billable $180 is probably the norm for defense. Not that we get even half of that. There is usually a multiplier called the "wrap rate," that's applied to your hourly rate to get the billable rate. I've seen wrap rates as high as 3.5:1. The wrap rate accounts for all the overhead that can be allocated to a contract rate, including admin support, office supplies, rent, utilities, internal research and development, etc.

TTFN

 

[UcfSE]

Concerning stamping other disciplines...(folks do this all the time..right?). Its an issue of if you "know your sh**" or not. I would never stamp anything I didn't feel comfortable stamping. In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commericial buildings?

That's dangerous and very concerning. I assume you would pass the appropriate PE exam first concentrating on structural or MEP.

 

[monkeydog]

Regarding stamping other disiplines "(folks do this all the time .. right?)"

No, I do not know of anyone who does it.

Straw Poll

Does anyone know of someone who does this "routinely" or "on-occasion"?

 

[EddyC]

I currently work for an A/E firm. I have had numerous interactions with the Structural, Electrical and Mechanical Engineers who work here. In my opinion, there is too much of a gulf between electrical engineering and the other disciplines for any regular engineer to bridge. I think that you would have to be an extraordinary person to be able to do it.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Oops, check my math... I skipped the 360 - .9 X 360 = 90...

I have been told, as recently as three weeks ago, that, well, since I'm a PE I should know how to engineer a power grid for a city. - that was even after I violently asserted my uncomfortability concerning doing EE work. My final answer: "the reason we have electrical engineers is so they can do electrical engineering; I'm here to do the structural work!" Some PMs, they just don't get it.

PM: These engineers just don't get it! It's not rocket science!

 

[JStephen]

It's not uncommon to have incidental work from other disciplines included in your work, and some types of work fall into more than one field. But to have one guy that does all the electrical and all the structural and all the HVAC and all the architecture, etc., is just not how it's normally done, and with good reason.

Senselesssticker, what state are you in, anyway?

 

[Senselessticker]

Please note from my first post that the GC plans to bring myself, an architect, and probably another engineer (PE) on board, and most likely expand from there (designers, CAD operators, project managaers, more engineers, etc...).

In any case, I was hoping to get some feed back from some folks who have taken some risk by joining a small company in a big position such as what I have described. Instead, it seems, most posts (not all) in this thread would rather make insulting and presumptuous statements.

Sheeshh...you guys are acting like a bunch of engineers!

 

[TDAA]

"Is this the opportunity of a lifetime, or should I be very careful in my consideration before I try to leave cubicalville?"

People are pointing out considerations. If you were not wanting honest answers from people you should not have asked our opinions.

Here: It is a chance of a lifetime!!. Don't even think that there could be downsides as pointed out above.


Does that feel better?

 

[GregLocock]

SS, I'd have to say the most presumptious statement in this thread came from you, I'm afraid

" In reality though...how complicated is HVAC/structural for small commericial buildings? I imagine it wouldn't take long to learn applicable codes/standards. "

Is that the standard you apply when stamping something? That a couple of years of reading the codes and standards is enough?







Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[JStephen]

Well, my boss is one who went to work for a small company and now after these many years, he owns the company and seems to be doing very well at it. So under the right circumstances, that's definitely a chance worth taking.

The reason I brought up some of the issues that I did is that for this to work, he (and you) have to have a realistic expectation of what is to be done. I don't do electrical work, but it sounds like this would be a fairly small part of your duties, which means you are essentially changing engineering fields without any formal education to go with it. That doesn't sound very realistic, and that would make the risk much less worthwhile.

Now, if this guy was an electrical contractor, or ran an electrical consulting firm, I think you'd have a potential heck of a deal. But that's not the case, which would make me approach it very cautiously.

 

[ee2002]

I agree with Jstephen. In my state, seals are discipline specific and I have not yet heard of anybody stamping outside of their discipline.

 

[proletariat]

Re: hiring other PEs and Architects to do the real work...
Ask yourself this: Why does he want you if you don't have the experience to start sealing things right out of the gate? Is it based on the fact that you are friends, and he just wants someone he can put his faith in to run that side of the business? If his reason is anything other than this, I would question why he wants to pay you to essentially be a figurehead when you don't have the experience to perform the work. What are his motivations for bringing you on? I think you should have a serious conversation with him (if you haven't already) about what his expectations are. If you are there strictly as a trusted manager, I would say go for it. There are plenty of successful project managers and executives that don't have a clue what their employees do.

You WILL get into trouble if you seal things for which you are not competent. Even if something of yours doesn't fall down, you competition will report you to the board. In fact, they have a duty to.

I would also echo the concerns of the others as far as structural being more complicated than you are giving it credit for. Get yourself a copy of the LRFD steel manual by the AISC, a copy of an ASD timber design manual set (don't remember the publisher), and a copy of a masonry design manual from the ACI. If you can read and understand all of these, I'd say you have a shot. I abandoned my plans of sealing building code deviations for stick built structures after I tried reviewing these materials from my mostly-structural undergrad education. I'll stick with stormwater where the biggest screw up I can make is causing some flooding.

 

[Senselessticker]

Thanks to everyone for all the posts. I want to make it clear that I have no intention of running around recklessly stamping drawings someday as some have suggested. And the direction of this thread did not go down the path I was hoping for. Yes…it would be nice to have the knowledge and competence to stamp other discipline’s drawings someday (however, it is not a job *requirement*). I’m sure the GC (and potential business partner) would be thrilled if I were able to wear different hats. And if I become competent in say HVAC design and functionality, and feel comfortable enough to go to court defending my position, and assuming its still legal to sign (which it is in my state), then why shouldn’t I? I did not intend to sound condescending towards the education, experience, and knowledge that is required to be multi-disciplined.

We all know there are plenty of licensed engineers out there not worth their weight. Heck, I work with a few incompetent PE’s who I would not trust to design or build a doghouse. And I work with some designers who are more competent then the PE he works for. Hypothetically, I’d rather have a “good” mechanical engineer designing my electrical system of my house/office, than a “bad” electrical engineer. Engineers, regardless of discipline, should have the ability to learn and adapt to other disciplines, its part of what makes a “good” engineer. Folks who take no interest in learning about other disciplines (although exposed to it daily), are often difficult to work with due to a lack of knowledge when trying to coordinate (and I consider he/her an example of a “bad” engineer). Unfortunately, most engineers are not good ones.

I’m still hoping to hear from some folks who have experience either good or bad with taking a risk by joining someone in a small business with the dream of building a larger business. What did you do right/wrong? What was the most difficult hurdle?

And in response to an earlier post....Yes I believe it is possible to pick the codes, standards, and other methods of design and construction (and perhaps even become “competent” in other disciplines) relatively easily when considering residential or small commercial. It simply does not take the same level of “know how” and experience as compared to building a nuke plant, manufacturing facility, large research facility, etc... If it did require such a level of expertise….the American dream would be unaffordable.

 

[bvanhiel]

Unless you are fronting a lot of money, the only risk you are taking is that you might be out of a job for a little while if it doesn't work out. If the offer is as you've stated it, you'd have to be an idiot not to jump at the chance to make 3x salary.

-b

 

[Vaporware]

I'm no structural engineer, but I've been reading about PE responsibilites on the structural engineering other topics forum and I think you're underestimating the amount of work that is required to make a good building.

People are taking this thread in the wrong direction because they see the focus not in the opportunity, but the difficulties that you are not considering.