"Engineer" in New York State? 2

[Wasdifferent]

A week ago I met with the Owner and the Engineer on site to discuss the working drawings for a residential addition. The Engineer agreed to have a set of working drawings ready for the Owner "in about a week". The Engineer introduced himself by saying "I AM AN ENGINEER".

When the Owner presented me with the finished drawings this morning, they weren't stamped. Next to his signature, the Engineer listed himself as "builder/designer". The code enforcement office will only accept a set of stamped drawings. I asked the Owner to call the Engineer on his cell-phone. The Engineer said that he could have somebody else stamp the drawings, but it would cost a little extra.

If this guy has a degree in Civil Engineering, but isn't a PE, does he have any business presenting himself as an "Engineer" on a job-site in the State of New York? I am only a lowly tech, but as far as I know, if someone isn't a Registered Design Professional, and can't stamp a set of drawings, then they are no more an Engineer than I am. Am I right?

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[IRstuff]

If what you describe is correct, then he is violating the law, at least in California.

He should be reported to the local professional engineering organization ASAP.

Unless the situation is resolved correctly, YOU should run in the opposite direction as quickly as possible, since the fallout could very well touch on you well.

TTFN

 

[TheTick]

Just report him. If he's not in violation, he has nothing to worry about.

 

[Wasdifferent]

IRstuff,
I don't think that I see any fallout for me. I am NOT going to proceed until I have a complete set of working drawings with the seal and signature of a qualified and competent Registered Design Professional. Period.
Best regards,

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[Ron]

Mike...it's possible you've stumbled onto two violations here....one presenting himself as an engineer when he's not (violation of most engineering laws in the US), and potentially another engineer doing "plan stamping" or signing/sealing work over which he does not have responsible charge.

This should be investigated as it clearly hurts our profession.

 

[IRstuff]

At this point, the cat is out of the bag. Even if you got the drawings back again with seals, the drawings would still be suspect, as Ron suggests.

Unless you can get an independent engineering review, you would not be able to demonstrate due diligence.

TTFN

 

[Wasdifferent]

I'm not looking for any shortcuts. I have already contacted another firm. I am going to do this job right.

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[PSE]

Close the loop by contacting the state licensing board on this one.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/pe.htm

Regards

 

[BobPE]

michaeldouglassewell:

Some very good conversation is presented here for you. I think one thing that was overlooked is that you may have been harmed from this. If not by money, then by time. And our profession may have been harmed, if not by errors and mistakes, then by improper practice. Everyone looses. You will find the State of NY is very professional at dealing with these issues. Follow PSE's link, engage the people at the NY Board and ask their guidance. The process of reporting a suspected violation is very simple, and is done that way to take the burden off of you since you are not the problem. You will find a lot of very helpful engineers that will guide you as to what needs to be done. You will be helpoing youself, as you already cleary seem to understand, and you will be helping that individual that may be pretending to be an engineer at the same time.

Let us know how you make out...

Bob

 

[Wasdifferent]

BobPE,
I am very greatful for the time that you and the other guys have taken to clarify things for me. I won't let you down. Before I report this guy, I am going to be absolutely certain that there hasn't been any misunderstandings on the Owners part, or on my part. So far, my attempts to contact the Engineer? in question have been fruitless. His time is running out. I am not going to ignore what has transpired. There is going to be a resolution to this, and I will keep you posted.

I know that this site is for Professional Engineers, so I seldom post anything, but I have gained much from you guys, and I hope that you don't mind me hanging around. You are all doing more good here than you will ever know.
Best wishes to all,

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[IRstuff]

The site logo states:

INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

, not PEs specifically. In the US, a large portion of the engineering community is covered by the industrial exemption, and are therefore not required to be PEs

TTFN

 

[jsummerfield]

It could get worse if you pay the extra bit and someone stamps the drawings. In many states, an engineer cannot stamp the drawings if she does not supervise the work. If stamped after the drawings are generated, perhaps both the engineer and designer commit some kind of fraud that would interest the board.

John

 

[BJC]

IRStuff
I don't get your point. Are you saying that michel** shouldn't post here cause he's not a PE?
In all the state that I am registerd in you don't need to be a PE or even an architech to design your own house. You may or not need to be an architech to design houses. There are restrictions on square footage, spans etc.
I am pretty sure if you design roads and drainage systems that carry water down to where the ducks and fish live you have to be a PE.
I don't care if Michel*** is a janitor in an engineering firm or what, He's brough up an interesting case and I would like to know how it turns out.

 

[TheTick]

BJC
Read more carefully. IRStuff actually said the opposite.

 

[Wasdifferent]

IRstuff,
If you are welcoming me aboard; Thank you, I am quite honored. You guys and gals have my deepest respect. I am guided daily in my work by members of your profession. It is very comforting to have a good engineer close at hand, so that I don't get blind-sided by the things that I so often miss, no matter how careful I am.

jsummerfield,
I have contacted a Registered Design Professional who has no connection with the original individual in question. We are going to start from scratch, and we are going to do this job right. To quote an old friend, "This is a construction project, not a home for wayward children".
Best regards,

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[Wasdifferent]

BJC,
On my jobs: no stampy, no buildy. I do not wish to offend anyone, but I only use PEs. It sure is nice to see that seal and signature on my working drawings...

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[IRstuff]

Mike,
If it was not clear before, you're more than welcome to post your questions.


BJC,
I was specifically responding to Mike's concern that not being a PE was a requirement for posting. As I indicated in my post, the site is for engineering professionals, e.g., engineers, and not necessarily PEs.

TTFN

 

[BobPE]

BJC: I think the real question here is can a person hold themselves out to be an engineer to the public and not have a PE? I will say that in all the states that I am licensed in, the answer to that question is no.

michaeldouglassewell took one such person to task using his professional standards and got cought up in a big problem in our profession, unlicensed practice. If that person professed to be an "engineer," offered services of an engineer, and wanted to get paid like an engineer, then even if the project didn't require an engineer, the person is in trouble.

The definition of public is anyone in need of engineering services not covered by the industry exempt clause. The definition of engineering includes those pipes that carry water to the ducks you talk about, anything electrical, mechanical, marine, environmental, structural, telephonic, power, etc....anything that requires the application of physical and engineering principals for the solution of a problem.

This is a big problem and as there are so few PE's among our ranks, it is only going to get worse. It is an interesting problem in that I am curious to see how we engineers react and I think it is great that michael, who is representing the public in my opinion, understood what to do in a case like this, and sought guidance. What are we to do with the other 99.99999% of the public that does not know what to do in a case like this?

Bob

 

[Wasdifferent]

BobPE,
You're right, you guys do have a big problem. It's not just Graduate Engineers who are not yet PEs. It's small General Contractors who have 2 year tech degrees, and aren't afraid to fling the word "Engineer" around with reckless abandon. I have run into several of these people on Contractor's forums, and I have always taken them to task. In each case, when they are exposed, they evaporate into thin air, just as my "Engineer" friend here in New York has done.

Check out this link:

http://www.aibd.org

Some of these outfits are operating right on the very edge of what the law allows, and some individual members are going beyond.

What to do? IMO, stop ignoring these people, and start talking about the problem. The public is already paying the price for the deafening silence.

Best regards,



-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[Wasdifferent]

WOW! Click on "member benefits" on that link. This organization is now offering it's members a "wet stamp" for use on their working drawings.

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org