"Engineer" in New York State? 2

[Wasdifferent]

A week ago I met with the Owner and the Engineer on site to discuss the working drawings for a residential addition. The Engineer agreed to have a set of working drawings ready for the Owner "in about a week". The Engineer introduced himself by saying "I AM AN ENGINEER".

When the Owner presented me with the finished drawings this morning, they weren't stamped. Next to his signature, the Engineer listed himself as "builder/designer". The code enforcement office will only accept a set of stamped drawings. I asked the Owner to call the Engineer on his cell-phone. The Engineer said that he could have somebody else stamp the drawings, but it would cost a little extra.

If this guy has a degree in Civil Engineering, but isn't a PE, does he have any business presenting himself as an "Engineer" on a job-site in the State of New York? I am only a lowly tech, but as far as I know, if someone isn't a Registered Design Professional, and can't stamp a set of drawings, then they are no more an Engineer than I am. Am I right?

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[ctmtwilliams]

NO!! You guys are going down the wrong track! There is no need to start bashing Designers who are not Engineers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Professional Designers as long as they don’t present themselves to be Engineers. You can wet stamp the plans with Certified Registered Design Professional if you want, as long as you aren’t representing that your stamp can be used instead of an Engineer’s stamp. The mistake made by the individual in the original post, misrepresented himself as an Engineer to the public.

I’m a Professional Geologist who is just finishing a remodel/addition to my home. The design and drawing of my plans were done by a Professional Designer (NOT an Engineer) who worked with a P.E. on the engineering portion of the project. That P.E. worked with data provided by my Certified Engineering Geologist and a P.E./Geotechnical Engineer. They all worked together as a team, just as they were supposed to! The Professional Designer was able to provide all of the details (5 pages all totaled) in the drawings which allow me (as an owner/builder) to build the project.

 

[Wasdifferent]

ctmtwilliams,
I don't mean to bash anyone. These guys are fine if they are working with an Architect or an Engineer, but working alone they can easily be blind-sided, because they are not fully qualified. I think that the days of these guys working alone are numbered, and rightly so.
Best regards,

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[BobPE]

ctmtwilliams:

I don't think we are bashing anyone including designers. All designers work for PE's if their work involves engineering. I don't think that is the problem.

As for a Certified Registered Design Professional, that means nothing in the States if you are providing engineering services to the public and is not a substitute for a PE stamp. If I saw that service being offered, I would report it to the appropriate State Licensure Board. I have my designers sign my drawings alongside my name and seal, but that is an internal QA/QC protocol and has nothing to do with State Regulations governing my seal.

This is a big problem, no doubt, and there are new derivatives of "engineer" being created every day. As michaeldouglasewell stated, our silence is beginning to affect the public in a negative way.

take care...

Bob

 

[Wasdifferent]

BobPE,
"there are new derivatives of "engineer" being created every day".

Yes, that was my point. A program of designers working with Engineers can benefit everyone involved if it is done properly. Using a designer as an inexpensive substitute for an Engineer is a big mistake. That is what is being promoted as a method by many people. I think that it is wrong, I think that it is dangerous, and I think that it hurts the Engineering Profession.
Best regards,

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[EddyC]

Hello Mike,

I wanted to give you my insight as I am a NY PE:

a) In NYS you can call yourself an Engineer if you don't have a PE. But you need a PE to call yourself a Professional Engineer.

b) Is the Engineer that you are dealing with the one offering the engineering service? Or is he/she an employee of a PE who is offering the engineering service? An engineer employee of a PE doesn't need to be a PE as long as the PE employer is supervising & stamping the engineer employee's work.

c) In NYS, a PE can be hired to stamp the work of someone else PROVIDED that they do a thorough review.

Now bear in mind that all of the above applies to NYS. Other states have their own specific regulations which can and do vary. I suggest that you get NYS to send you a copy of their engineering regulations. You may as well learn it since you are interfacing with engineers and have already run into ethics issues.

 

[Wasdifferent]

EddyC,
Thank you very much for your time, and your help.
There is much more to the story than I posted originally, and each day brings new surprises. At this point, it appears that the individual in question can best be described as FUBAR. Ever meet someone who lies just for the sport of it, even when they know that there is a 100% chance that they will be caught? If you haven't, I hope you never do. This character is bizarre. I think that I am dealing with a renegade tech here. I highly doubt that ANY Engineer would have anything to do with him.

Got a link for me on those regulations?

Thanks again,

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[Maui]

Mike, this is the link that you are looking for regarding unprofessional conduct:

http://www.heimer.com/frameset/offsite.asp?url=http://www.op.nysed.gov/pe.htm

The laws of the State are clear in regard to unauthorized practice. Section 6512.1 of the Education Law makes it a class E felony for anyone not authorized to practice who practices or offers to practice or holds himself out as being able to practice professional engineering. Section 6509 defines professional misconduct as, among other things, permitting, aiding or abetting an unlicensed person to perform activities requiring a license; and, section 6512.2 makes it a class E felony for anyone, including a public official, to knowingly aid or abet three or more unlicensed persons practice a profession requiring a license.



Maui

 

[Wasdifferent]

Maui,
Thank you so much.

Wheels in motion, wheels in motion.
-Jerry Seinfeld

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[Wasdifferent]

From NYS Education Department Web-site:

An entity not authorized to provide professional engineering services, such as a general contractor, can not subcontract with a licensed professional engineer in order to provide engineering services to a third party client. The basis for professional regulation is that the service of the professional must be provided directly from the professional to the client without any unlicensed third party between the client and the professional. This unlicensed third party may have other interests (such as financial) that could jeopardize the level and/or quality of the professional service received by the client.



-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[Wasdifferent]

The Owner has decided to report the "Engineer". Thank you all very much for taking the time and trouble to provide me with all of the good information and advice.

-Mike

http://www.sewellconstruction.org

 

[IRstuff]

It's hard contemplating the destruction of someone's livelihood, but he is a criminal and you have done a public service by removing him from the streets.

Had there been any problems with his design, your client would have had no legal recourse, since the "engineer" wouldn't have been carrying any insurance.



TTFN