"Engineering" in business name

[davidVz]

Hi,

Can anyone advise if they are aware if it is or is not legal to use the term "engineering" in a business name in the state of Michigan without the LLC member being licensed as a P.E. ?

I know there are several states which do have a requirement like this and that the state of Michigan have statues in place regarding the use of Professional Services in business names but have not found anything related specifically to the use of the term "engineering."

Thank you,

David

thread765-130734

 

[KENAT]

I assume you've contacted the state board already?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[GregLocock]

Pick up that very heavy phone and ask the state board

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[TheTick]

I usually see the opposite, where someone tries to hide the fact that they are offering engineering services without proper credentials.

 

[dicksewerrat]

If you are offering to do "engineering" you need a P.E. If you are not offering to do "engineering" don't use the word.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[IRstuff]

See

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(sw...ctName=mcl-339-2014&highlight=Act 299 of 1980

for the exact wording of your state's law. The "or a similar term in a firm name" is sufficiently vague that your proposed name is most likely illegal. Have you even done a Yellow Pages or internet search for similar names in your state?

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

My boss is a PE but also does home inspections and states that he is not doing engineering when he performs home inspections and takes great care to avoid implying that he does. Some jerk decided to try to get money from my boss for an inspection despite our clear inspection language but that's another story. He complained to the state board which the board basically told my boss that you're doing fine. They're only sticking point was that our companies name has "engineering" in the title and the inspections referenced our companies name. They said that this should be removed or clarified.

I would not put engineering in the title unless there was a PE on staff or you operated entirely under industrial exemptions or similar.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

 

[TheTick]

You can state anything you want. The board will judge you by your actions.

 

[zdas04]

Sometimes it is more than the stat board. In my small town, to get a business license for MuleShoe Engineering I had to produce a current New Mexico license. The renewal letter every year says that the license is invalid if there is not a NM licensed P.E. in a decision making role. The local ordinance is based on the state law that says to "hold yourself out to the public as and engineer" requires a P.E. So when you are checking your state law you might also want to check your city ordinances.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[ornerynorsk]

There are a host of companies that produce consumer retail goods with engineering in their name. They most likely do not offer engineering services. Your state business licensing authority might have as much to say about it as your state professional agency.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[davidVz]

IRStuff,

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but if the law draws a distinction by using the term "professional engineer" rather than "engineer" it seems reasonable to me to use the latter legally without a license. How is it different than a non-medical doctor using the title doctor?

The term engineering itself, as vague defined by ABET, seems like it could apply to activities which do not require a license.

Granted, at the end of the day a court is going to use subjectivity as it desires and I agree with your assessment completely.

-D

 

[zdas04]

If a girl in a bar asks you what you do and you day "I'm an engineer", you are not "holding yourself out to the public as an engineer". Naming your company "Totally Awesome Engineering" is. You can argue with it till the cows come home and you will lose.

A friend of mine started "[Insert his name here] Engineering, LLC" in Colorado in the 1990's. Somehow it came to the attention of the state board that he did not have a P.E. on staff at all, let alone as a corporate officer, and he got a polite cease and desist letter. He ignored it. He got a not-so-polite "if you don't cease and desist we will bring action" letter and he ignored that too. They filed suit and his negotiated settlement included changing the business name and paying a fine. The business failed a couple of years later.

Ignore regulations at your peril. Fail to get competent legal advice at your peril. Best of luck to you in your new venture.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[TheTick]

For a reasonable fee, you can hire me to consult and provide advice specifically tailored to make you feel good about whatever questionable activity you are attempting to embark upon.

--OR--

You can take some real time and look at real laws and codes and maybe consult with someone who can save you from yourself.

--OR--

I have lots of rope. Be glad to sell you some. I'll even throw in the appropriate knots for free.

 

[GTstartup]

So how does it work? Let's say my company tests widgets. I can pay my buddy who is a PE $50/week to be on my staff and I can call my company XYZ engineering as long as I don't actually do any "engineering"?

 

[zdas04]

When I got my business license the clerk said "owner or corporate officer". I don't know if that is universal or just this town. The case I mentioned in Colorado had the same requirement.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

"So how does it work? Let's say my company tests widgets. I can pay my buddy who is a PE $50/week to be on my staff and I can call my company XYZ engineering as long as I don't actually do any "engineering"?"

In states like California, industrial companies are exempt.


TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[zdas04]

They are exempt because they don't hold themselves out to the public as offering engineering services. If Boeing was called Boeing Engineering, Inc, then they would be holding themselves out as providing engineering.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. —Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

"If Boeing was called Boeing Engineering, Inc, then they would be holding themselves out as providing engineering."

Not particularly; one can simply look at the revenue stream and show that their main business is manufacturing, and the engineering related to their manufactured products or process. Any non-product related engineering that they perform is for specific customers that solicit Boeing's engineering expertise,

But, when it's Joe Blow Engineering, and it's clear from the paper trail that they're actually doing engineering for the public at large, it's a fait accompli.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[DRWeig]

There was a case in Tennessee (similar laws) in which a superb electronic engineer had the job title "Design Engineer" in an exempt industrial setting. One of his business cards made it into the hands of the state board of architectural and engineering examiners. $1000 fine and cease-desist order. The business card was considered an offer to hold himself out to the public as offering engineering services. The company name had no reference to engineering; it was just his job title.

He later took his PE exam, passed with flying colors, and ordered some more business cards.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[imcjoek]

and it's clear from the paper trail that they're actually doing engineering for the public at large

So what actually defines "engineering" and "the public at large"? What is/isn't exempt does not seem to have a clear answer.

If a company manufactures and sells a consumer product:
Does the engineering that went into the design of the product and the design of it's manufacturing processes require PE oversight?
If a company manufactures and sells an industrial product to industrial end users:
Ditto above. Also, does this count as "the public at large"?

Things are pretty clear when a company provides a service. IE: We come to your house and inspect your foundation.
Things seem totally confused once a product and/or manufacturing are involved.
There's a long chain of steps from product conception to finally getting it into the hands of somebody that is willing to exchange money for it.
Which of these steps require PE oversight? Design of the product? Design of the product's manufacturing methods? Design of the truck that will take the product to Wally World? If a product consists as a compilation of off-the-shelf components, who has the ultimate "engineering" responsibility? The supplier of those components or the OEM that tapes them together or the user who integrates it into their plant?

Even trying to GET a PE in these enivronments is frustrating at best given the reference requirements and the catch-22 that results.